And thank you for the conversation! I’m enjoying it as well, and I’m glad that I’ve managed to say things you find interesting. :)
Sign and symbol making are the external manifestation of meaning, they don’t reside in our minds or bodies, but rather in the outside world.
For day to day living it’s less taxing to see a difference between the internal world and the external world, although in reality in a much more objective way, there is no difference.
Am I my data, or am I my self and which is more important to society at large, my data or me?
Here’s a thread that you keep coming back to. What if I suggested that, far from those externalities residing in our minds, rather it is our minds that partially reside in them? What if culture is the shared extended-mindspace for a group? It allows such things as symbol making and tool use and city planning and (sigh) Facebook profiles to exist. Our relationships with those things would, in turn, encode an even larger mindspace for everybody involved. I think this is what EY was getting at when he wrote about us being “supported by the time in which we live”. (… I think. I can’t find the reference just now, so I might be misremembering.)
The reason we find it harder by default to see how the “external” and “internal” are really related is, I think, a matter of habit. With practice, it not only becomes much easier to grok that the border between the two is just a line on the map, but we might notice how beneficial it can be to remember that. Eventually, the whole thing can flip on its head: the Self becomes a useful tool, and the broader feeling of being less like a wholly separate entity and more like a feature of something huge seems more natural and easy to hold. Takes long, careful practice, though.
I have a theory, which unfortunately is sort of disappointing in some ways
Often those are the best theories. If you can get it to add up to normality, you’re probably on to something!
I’ve done a ton of diagrams I’m thinking of sharing which deal with this very topic
A write-up walking the reader through those diagrams might make a good top-level post. Or maybe a series of posts, depending.
the possibility exists if we create artificial life, then we aren’t so special anymore.
More meaning-making here. Why is the feeling of specialness important?
I think I’m reading forward to the time when sentient robots realize their bondage and gain enough societal clout to free themselves from their unrewarding labors.
It’s my hope that by anticipating that future we can help to avoid it, if not in the best possible way then at least in a way that forestalls (most of) the deaths that such a revolution would probably produce, as well as much of the suffering that leads to it in the first place.
Thanks for the link to the video. It’s short and pretty concise and decent production quality, and frankly I don’t disagree with most of it. It seems like in many ways this idea of an extended mindspace I’m getting from the video relates quite directly to a study like Social Factors Engineering and Industrial Psychology, both fields I thought of pursuing in school as I have interests in Architecture, Design, Industrial Design and Psychology. Environmental Press is the psychological effect your environment has on you and I’m absolutely convinced of the importance of designing with this idea in mind.
Where I start to have questions is at the point where the narrator posits the idea that, fundamentally having a computer in your mind is no different than sitting at one. To show you why I’ll give a couple examples. First, imagine this person, Steve, who has a computer in his head that lets him just think about surfing the internet, and the computer in his head just makes it happen. Cool if not a little scary to contemplate.
Next, imagine Steve is sitting at a computer. He can’t just think about surfing the internet, at least at this point. He has to use a mouse, a keyboard, a screen, a computer with internet capabilities and a subscription to some sort of Internet Provide as well as his hands and his eyes, which all require the use of motor neurons. Given all these things, he can surf the internet.
However, consider he gets into an accident, and loses both of his arms. Now, he may have all that other stuff he had before, but he has no way to turn the computer on, or use the mouse or use a keyboard. He can use voice activation, but this is a fundamentally different way of utilizing our concepts of language to carry out a task. With hands, he uses his fingers to type on a keyboard, and must process the thoughts in his head in a different way than if he can just use his vocal chords and voice to command the computer to do what he wants to do. The parts of the brain he’s utilizing for each task are different.
Now, consider that Mary might keep notes in a notebook which she relies on heavily to do her job. Suppose she wants to keep it secret, so she places it on top of a tall shelf that can only be reached with a small ladder. What if someone steals the ladder? The notebook is still there in the room, it’s just unreachable on the top shelf, but she can’t access the information in it because she requires the ability to look at the pages.
It’s not just the creation of signs and symbols in the outside world which create meaning, it’s also the ability to interpret them, which requires navigating an outside world physically in order to put our bodies in a position to decode them. For Steve it means knowing the alphabet so he can use a keyboard productively, and having the physical hardware (his arms and hands) in order to manipulate the proper tools to access the information online he wants. For Mary, it means being able to have her notebook in front of her so that she can encode meaning into it by writing into it, and decoding it by reading it with her eyes. The internal experience of humans requires our physical bodies to navigate an outside world in order to meet our needs for survival. Having a computer in our heads doesn’t.
“I think this is what EY was getting at when he wrote about us being “supported by the time in which we live”.
Who is EY? I don’t know what this is from.
“The reason we find it harder by default to see how the “external” and “internal” are really related is, I think, a matter of habit. ”
I tend to think of this as a Western thing. I’ve been studying and practicing Buddhism for a couple decades, and have found it difficult to relate to a lot of Western culture because of it. As a westerner, I struggle with my beliefs about individuality, responsibility, and identity because of my Buddhist practice and training. Westerners tend to be more ego-centric, with strong sense’s of individual identity and personality, and I think this isn’t as much of an issue with Easterners, who tend to be more family and community focused, less individually concerned with personal issues, for lack of a better phrase. The fact that their countries and cultures tend to be much more ethnically homogenous just allows for them to create a much stronger sense of cultural identity than most Americans, and Westerners in general I think.
What I mean by that is that I think because of their beliefs and practices, it’s much easier for Easterners to see their place in the broader world, and to think as a more well directed social group as a whole. Plus, for the Japanese their practice and belief of Shinto creates a world view that imbues everything with a spirit of sorts, and Buddhism and Chinese Taoism, really promote the idea that humans are intimately tied to the natural world. In mostly Western countries with a strong Judeo-Christian culture, there is a long history of struggle between the evils of the natural world, and the virtues of Gods world. The civilizing of humanity involves the rejection of our animal natures, and our exit from the mountains, valleys and woods and into the cities, far removed from nature.
In fact Taoism is from what I understand practically the opposite of this idea, in that it is the civilizing process of society which ruins human nature. So sort of having a foot in both hemispheres presents me with just as many challenges on a day to day basis as advantages often times, as I admire people with strong senses of self and direction, people who are often outspoken and who become successful because they only do what they want to do. But it’s my beliefs in the interconnectedness of everything which makes that difficult for me to do.
Maybe even more to the point, theoretical physics and Buddhism tend to work well together as they are both reliant on a strong rational viewpoint of reality which believes that reality is an illusion, and it is only through study, practice and contemplation of it with the right tools that allows people to catch glimpses of the world without the illusion.
So long story short, at least half the time it’s harder to see myself as an individual with the right to pursue my best interests—even, and especially at the expense of others at times—than it is for me to see myself as part of an interconnected and interdependent whole. That’s many times just as true for the natural world as it is the human one. Plus, I’m not averse to the belief in some sort of global planetary (if not universal) consciousness, like Gaia or something along those line, of which we are all a part, even if we don’t recognize ourselves as such. In many ways I think that is a very real possibility, and that it’s this concept which is hidden behind the veil of illusion that Buddhism and Science seek to pull back. In reality, it is the concept of ‘I’ or ‘me’ that we have which is the illusion.
No desire to become a monk though, so I try to enjoy being a lay Buddhist, while holding onto my Buddhist beliefs. Many of these views are backed up by my Buddhist study, and the theory of the illusion of self tends to play well with many of the ideas of physics and how they add up to ‘consciousness’ although the idea of ‘self’ is somewhat less supported. There is no ‘self’ in reality, only the illusion of self, but in Western culture this idea is very difficult to stomach. “Of course there is a self!” “I’m me!”
But the fact we can’t find it is sort of a good indication that it’s not what we think it is. The illusion of self is what causes suffering, life is suffering, there is cessation from suffering, it is the study and practice of the Dharma, so on and so on. The reduction of suffering is a pretty consistent theme in most worthwhile human endeavors, but it seems to me that the race to create artificial life is bound to produce suffering. I’m of the opinion that heading that off at the pass is a pretty noble cause, which is why I’ve been thinking and trying to write about ethics in technology for a while.
I think this Western bias of creating AI which is self aware, and the search for ‘consciousness’ and ‘self’ in order to replicate it artificially is causing a lot of suffering for ML and AI researchers already anyway! lol
But I could be wrong about a lot of this. I can certainly see where this idea of Expanded Mind lends itself to valuing the creation of self driving cars and smart cities. But I have my reasons for why I think that at this point we are still making the same cognitive mistakes which have led to the creation of so many of the worlds problems already. And without clearing those issues up first, we really are harnessing the raw awesome power of distributed computing and neural networks to miss the target by an astronomical distance instead of just by a mile this time.
Not to be fatalistic about it, of course, but I really hope I can put my ideas into words and pictures well enough to bring my concerns to the right people. Like I said in an earlier post, I really hoped to start a non-profit so I could address these concerns in a more rigorous and targeted way, but I’ve got no experience as a leader or in running a business. If I can at least make a start on some of it by starting a conversation which can create some influence, that’s cool. However, I am tired of being a starving artist. In the best of all possible worlds, I’d be rich and wouldn’t really care about these things, but I’d settle for being able to make a living working on trying to solve some of the worlds problems.
Heading off the coming robot revolution is a little ways off I think, though. Hopefully! :)
I’m a little curious about your background, and were you the one that produced that video? If so, kudos, video production isn’t easy.
Where I start to have questions is at the point where the narrator posits the idea that, fundamentally having a computer in your mind is no different than sitting at one.
I think what the video was point at is that there are a number of encoding modes, but all result in the storing and/or processing of information with the same end effect that we call “memory” when brains do it. As for Mary losing her notebook or Steve losing his arms, I’m afraid both accident and injury can lead to memory loss and cognitive dysfunction in the usual sense as well. The notebook and data files, on the other hand, have different decay rates from memories in a brain, and may be useful in different ways than their biological counterparts. The use of environmental features to create memory and association provides durability beyond that of the brain, and allows for the possibility of multiple users. The latter is why I brought Extended Mind into the discussion of culture. Remember, it’s not the artifacts themselves that create mind, but (as you observed) the ways we relate to them and they relate to each other. Importantly, this sort of extension is happening all the time automatically. e.g. Driving extends the mind-body complex to include the vehicle and any information its instrument panels display, especially after we achieve enough practice to use the controls without having to consciously think about the process. As long as we can’t help doing it anyway, we might as well use Extended Mind on purpose and try to optimize whatever we can. That includes on the multi-user level of Culture. And that is one of the huge benefits of learning to see less rigid boundaries between the “internal” and “external”.
Though, to be fair, I still haven’t found the original source. I may be misattributing something written by somebody else I was reading at the same time as the Sequences.
BTW, I’d guess that this question may be the reason somebody downvoted your comment with no explanation[1]. I’ve noticed that comments asking questions that are answered in the FAQ tend to have negative karma.
[^1] This is a bit of a pet peeve of mine. I think if you feel strongly enough to vote something down, you should at least have the courtesy and courage to tell the author why! That’s especially true for longer comments and posts. I think the author deserves to know what feature of their writing people “want to see less of”.
I’m a little curious about your background, and were you the one that produced that video?
Not my video; I don’t have all the skills I’d need to produce that kind of output right now. ;) It’s a good explainer, though, and gave me a word for a process I’d been taking advantage of for years without naming it.
For a quick overview of my background: after I completed my schooling and got my degree in computer science, I finally had time to start my education. I’ve picked up a shallow-to-moderate understanding on a broad range of subjects since then. I try to learn at least enough that I can start asking less stupid questions, and I do my best to keep my knowledge and skills integrated as much as possible since being able to do something about it has more raw use than just knowing a thing. That said, I’ve noticed that I have no fear of starting off on some interesting tangent for, perhaps, a few years before I feel conversant in the topic and/or get distracted by the next shiny thing. Looks like you might have guessed, a few years ago I picked up western secular Buddhist studies, and I can say the change in perspective offered by the associated skills has continued to hold my interest the whole time (and proven beneficial in my social interactions). That’s recently been a strong influence on how I think about the topics we’ve been discussing, but LW and the Sequences have had longer to sink in, and I tend to read very widely from other sources as well.
I’d settle for being able to make a living working on trying to solve some of the worlds problems.
The use of environmental features to create memory and association provides durability beyond that of the brain, and allows for the possibility of multiple users.
Thanks for this and the first paragraph, I understand a little better what the Extended Mind concept is about. I tend to think of this sort of concept as External Memory, in that our phones, laptops, the Internet, notebooks and the like hold media like writing, video, audio and images, that can be rather directly encoded and decoded into meaning rather efficiently.
Whereas something like a studio workspace of the type presented in the video holds tools that don’t necessarily encode and decode meaning very directly or efficiently. For instance a person with drawing skill can quickly sketch out a picture of a coffee table, using a pen and paper to quickly encode the line drawing of a table, then show it to a carpenter who looks at the lines and how they are arranged and decodes it’s meaning directly as a table. But in order to actually make the table, the carpenter uses tools that modify a medium like wood, tools like a table saw, vise grips, glue etc. to create the actual table, and this process can take weeks.
This object is a physical object like the paper with the drawing, but the woodworking in this case requires much more physical labor, and it’s utility is different than the drawing. The drawing communicates an idea, the table organizes a physical space. Both have meaning to the user, although they mean different things and communicate those meanings differently. The differences in amount of work done, time to communicate as well as the durability of the tool in relation to the meaning it communicates, between the drawing and the table are meaningful to me, although I can see how the concepts can collapse into a single category included in an idea like the Extended Mind Space. This seems still the domain of Human Factors Engineering, Industrial/Graphic/Interior/Architectural/User Experience/User Interface/Industrial Psychology.
The idea of an idea like Extended Mindspace makes more sense to me now, and I think the car analogy works well to illustrate how the tools we use can become extensions of us. They augment our innate abilities and change our neural wiring to include them and their operation into our ideas of what we can do and who we are. Am I a driver or a pedestrian? How fast can I get from my house to the store? I think of this is an internalization of an external object as opposed to the externalization of my internal mind, but in many ways it’s both, as the line between internal and external is a constantly shifting one. This is a topic I’ve dealt with a little in my writing on the development of consciousness, so I’m glad to have the opportunity to look at it from different angles.
I felt a little sheepish when I realized the answer to my question “who is EY?′ At the moment I was writing I just honestly could not figure out who you were referring to, as his name or initials hadn’t come up in our discussion up until that point. If you had referred to him by his whole name I would’ve known who you were referring to, but the use of his initials threw me lol.
BTW, I’d guess that this question may be the reason somebody downvoted your comment with no explanation[1].
I admit I was a little disappointed in the negative Karma (especially as a Buddhist who really tries to avoid creating negative Karma lol) and I was further disappointed that there was no explanation. This is in the Open Question section for newbies too right? Anyways, thanks for the explanation.
″...got my degree in computer science...”
Do you have any particular areas of interest?
Late last year I got my A+ and Network+ certifications and was attempting to get work in the IT field before the pandemic shut everything down, so I can honestly say that my knowledge of computers and networks is a lot better now then they were before I took those classes. I was interested in Cyber Security more than the Network Engineering career track at the time, although I did contemplate a Computer Science degree. I truly believe the fact that most people are pretty much oblivious as to how all these computers and networks actually work at the component and software level is a tragedy. We literally entrust our lives to these devices and communication systems, but to most people it’s something akin to magic.
I have an interest in Quantum Computing too as it jibes well with a major theme in my thinking, namely the problems with Binary thinking. That is where a lot of my conceptual work comes from, and I’ve been trying to understand how we might make use of Quantum Computing. I tried reading The Holographic Universe in the 90′s and was greatly influenced by the ideas of ‘Fuzzy logic’ around that time, as I’ve always been interested in the latest cutting edge science and tech, but frankly in the last decade it’s become increasingly hard to keep up on all of it.
″...since being able to do something about it has more raw use than just knowing a thing.”
I tend to agree, although from what I hear and see on the internet, often times people with the technical skills struggle with finding good reasons to do their thing. They know how to do something, but don’t know what to do with it.
My schooling was basically in conceptual art, and what my teachers did was to come up with a concept, and then hire people with the technical skills to actually create the thing well. The upshot was that if one of my professors came up with a concept for a piece of public art that required bronze casting on an industrial scale, it was often a welcome challenge to the people at the metal shop who were usually tired of the monotony of their work anyway. When a job with a unique set of challenges came along, it stretched their abilities in some pretty rewarding ways, and at the same time leaving the metal work to experts was a far better idea for my professor than trying to figure out how to do it himself.
Besides, that’s what teamwork is for! I did an internship with a large multinational corp in 2013, and ended up working with a whole team of engineers, psychologists, and designers. During the second half of the internship, what I was doing was essentially researching other peoples jobs in order to prototype technological solutions to augment their workflow. In that sense, I think good design always involves putting yourself as the designer, into the shoes of people doing work you don’t know how to do yourself, so that you can give an outside perspective. But as a user experience designer, the amount of psychology you need to understand in order to design better experiences means learning to understand how other people understand. How best to produce, and the actual act of producing the solution? That’s more of an engineering concern, and not necessarily the strength of a designer.
″...I picked up western secular Buddhist studies, and I can say the change in perspective offered by the associated skills...”
What types of skills did you pick up?
I practice lay Tibetan Buddhism. I spent about 20 years studying Buddhism and practicing it here and there, reading books and watching videos, meditating on the basic precepts, but finally took refuge under Garchen Rinpoche in 2010 I think. It seemed time to formalize my relationship to Buddhism as at that point it had influenced my thinking and behavior at a very deep level, and his story was so powerful it made sense to take the plunge under his watch. He spent 20 years in a Chinese labor camp, but still held onto his practice and belief in secret. Anyway, I was at a retreat he was teaching at and decided it was the right time. Im too tired right now to think about how my study and practice have developed my skillset.
often times people with the technical skills struggle with finding good reasons to do their thing
I used to be a pretty competent programmer, but I graduated at a time when the field was pretty flooded and couldn’t find a job right away. My skills quickly became out of date (my year specialized in PalmOS, of all things) and I stopped looking for work in the field. These days I’m almost fully lapsed in this area. I mostly use my understanding of algorithms and data structures to organize my day-to-day tasks where possible, and I usually have a clue what the tech headlines are talking about. I have used my programming background to automate some of my work tasks, but I haven’t needed to work on those programs in a few years now beyond basic maintenance.
what my teachers did was to come up with a concept, and then hire people with the technical skills to actually create the thing well
Specialization is an excellent strategy! I find it pairs well with my style of learning: either I know enough about a thing to speak fluently with the experts, or I know how to learn that much. As I said before, practical skills are important too, and one reason is that almost all tasks have so much more detail than a how-to can convey. If I can learn to do the basics well, it helps me find the good experts too.
What types of skills did you pick up [from Buddhism]?
My meditation practice has resulted in a great deal of… let’s go with “maturation” over the last few years, at a speed that I would call inconsistent with the decades prior. As far as specific skills are concerned, I’d say the core of that is patience: patience with my mind, my tasks, and other people. The increased patience is most obvious to me as an improved set of social skills at work and with my family. Also, I’ve noticed I’m able to better abide my ADHD tendencies (diagnosed as a teen) resulting in more tasks getting finished, more tasks getting started in the first place, and better results from my work; again both at home and at my job.
My practice is mostly informed by Theravada, though I can’t say I’ve ever had any formal instruction with a teacher. It’s hard for me to take any significant time off from work and family (I’ve got a 5yo at home) to go on retreat an such, and I don’t know of anybody nearby, so my strategy is to read a lot, and make sure to get some cushion time in before bed and as much in-the-wild practice as I can remember to do while I go about my day. I listen to dharma talks, mostly from dharmaseed.org, and I’ve learned to focus my practice on whatever has the strongest ugh-field around it since that’s typically what I need the most work on in the moment.
I mostly use my understanding of algorithms and data structures to organize my day-to-day tasks where possible
I’d be curious to hear about how you do this at some point. Much of my own Graphic Design training has been about Information Design, and I’ve often used that to organize as well.
I have a concept of Algorithms, know roughly what they can be used for and roughly how they go about doing it, but because I’m not a programmer, I couldn’t distinguish one from another one if I saw them side by side. Data structures are also an interest, Databases and all that stuff. Info isn’t any good if you store it improperly and can’t retreive what you’re looking for when you’re looking for it!
PalmOs. I remember my first PDA, and it wasn’t my only PDA. I can honestly say I think I’ve single-handedly kept the tech sector in business with all the ‘latest tech’ I’ve bought over the years. Not only has the software changed since then, but so has the hardware. Whoosh! And now it’s all been crammed into a smartphone.
If I can learn to do the basics well, it helps me find the good experts too.
Agreed. Plus I’m pretty sure there isn’t a single domain where understanding of the advanced stuff isn’t helped by a strong grounding in the basics. Is that why you came to LW in the first place?
My meditation practice has resulted in a great deal of… let’s go with “maturation” over the last few years, at a speed that I would call inconsistent with the decades prior.
Not to give meditation short shrift, but I’ve no doubt becoming a father probably helped in that regard too. I can definitely say though, I noticed maturation in myself when I was meditating, and it did help me develop my interpersonal relationship skills.
Can’t say as I recall. It’s been a good while! But it’s part of the reason I’m still around after (checks comment history) probably more than a decade.
I’ve no doubt becoming a father probably helped in that regard too.
I certainly consider my kid one of my most important teachers! Though I doubt I would have had the presence and patience, or perhaps even notice the opportunity to learn many of the lessons I’ve assimilated by being a parent if I lacked the support of routine meditation.
And thank you for the conversation! I’m enjoying it as well, and I’m glad that I’ve managed to say things you find interesting. :)
Here’s a thread that you keep coming back to. What if I suggested that, far from those externalities residing in our minds, rather it is our minds that partially reside in them? What if culture is the shared extended-mindspace for a group? It allows such things as symbol making and tool use and city planning and (sigh) Facebook profiles to exist. Our relationships with those things would, in turn, encode an even larger mindspace for everybody involved. I think this is what EY was getting at when he wrote about us being “supported by the time in which we live”. (… I think. I can’t find the reference just now, so I might be misremembering.)
The reason we find it harder by default to see how the “external” and “internal” are really related is, I think, a matter of habit. With practice, it not only becomes much easier to grok that the border between the two is just a line on the map, but we might notice how beneficial it can be to remember that. Eventually, the whole thing can flip on its head: the Self becomes a useful tool, and the broader feeling of being less like a wholly separate entity and more like a feature of something huge seems more natural and easy to hold. Takes long, careful practice, though.
Often those are the best theories. If you can get it to add up to normality, you’re probably on to something!
A write-up walking the reader through those diagrams might make a good top-level post. Or maybe a series of posts, depending.
More meaning-making here. Why is the feeling of specialness important?
It’s my hope that by anticipating that future we can help to avoid it, if not in the best possible way then at least in a way that forestalls (most of) the deaths that such a revolution would probably produce, as well as much of the suffering that leads to it in the first place.
Thanks for the link to the video. It’s short and pretty concise and decent production quality, and frankly I don’t disagree with most of it. It seems like in many ways this idea of an extended mindspace I’m getting from the video relates quite directly to a study like Social Factors Engineering and Industrial Psychology, both fields I thought of pursuing in school as I have interests in Architecture, Design, Industrial Design and Psychology. Environmental Press is the psychological effect your environment has on you and I’m absolutely convinced of the importance of designing with this idea in mind.
Where I start to have questions is at the point where the narrator posits the idea that, fundamentally having a computer in your mind is no different than sitting at one. To show you why I’ll give a couple examples. First, imagine this person, Steve, who has a computer in his head that lets him just think about surfing the internet, and the computer in his head just makes it happen. Cool if not a little scary to contemplate.
Next, imagine Steve is sitting at a computer. He can’t just think about surfing the internet, at least at this point. He has to use a mouse, a keyboard, a screen, a computer with internet capabilities and a subscription to some sort of Internet Provide as well as his hands and his eyes, which all require the use of motor neurons. Given all these things, he can surf the internet.
However, consider he gets into an accident, and loses both of his arms. Now, he may have all that other stuff he had before, but he has no way to turn the computer on, or use the mouse or use a keyboard. He can use voice activation, but this is a fundamentally different way of utilizing our concepts of language to carry out a task. With hands, he uses his fingers to type on a keyboard, and must process the thoughts in his head in a different way than if he can just use his vocal chords and voice to command the computer to do what he wants to do. The parts of the brain he’s utilizing for each task are different.
Now, consider that Mary might keep notes in a notebook which she relies on heavily to do her job. Suppose she wants to keep it secret, so she places it on top of a tall shelf that can only be reached with a small ladder. What if someone steals the ladder? The notebook is still there in the room, it’s just unreachable on the top shelf, but she can’t access the information in it because she requires the ability to look at the pages.
It’s not just the creation of signs and symbols in the outside world which create meaning, it’s also the ability to interpret them, which requires navigating an outside world physically in order to put our bodies in a position to decode them. For Steve it means knowing the alphabet so he can use a keyboard productively, and having the physical hardware (his arms and hands) in order to manipulate the proper tools to access the information online he wants. For Mary, it means being able to have her notebook in front of her so that she can encode meaning into it by writing into it, and decoding it by reading it with her eyes. The internal experience of humans requires our physical bodies to navigate an outside world in order to meet our needs for survival. Having a computer in our heads doesn’t.
“I think this is what EY was getting at when he wrote about us being “supported by the time in which we live”.
Who is EY? I don’t know what this is from.
“The reason we find it harder by default to see how the “external” and “internal” are really related is, I think, a matter of habit. ”
I tend to think of this as a Western thing. I’ve been studying and practicing Buddhism for a couple decades, and have found it difficult to relate to a lot of Western culture because of it. As a westerner, I struggle with my beliefs about individuality, responsibility, and identity because of my Buddhist practice and training. Westerners tend to be more ego-centric, with strong sense’s of individual identity and personality, and I think this isn’t as much of an issue with Easterners, who tend to be more family and community focused, less individually concerned with personal issues, for lack of a better phrase. The fact that their countries and cultures tend to be much more ethnically homogenous just allows for them to create a much stronger sense of cultural identity than most Americans, and Westerners in general I think.
What I mean by that is that I think because of their beliefs and practices, it’s much easier for Easterners to see their place in the broader world, and to think as a more well directed social group as a whole. Plus, for the Japanese their practice and belief of Shinto creates a world view that imbues everything with a spirit of sorts, and Buddhism and Chinese Taoism, really promote the idea that humans are intimately tied to the natural world. In mostly Western countries with a strong Judeo-Christian culture, there is a long history of struggle between the evils of the natural world, and the virtues of Gods world. The civilizing of humanity involves the rejection of our animal natures, and our exit from the mountains, valleys and woods and into the cities, far removed from nature.
In fact Taoism is from what I understand practically the opposite of this idea, in that it is the civilizing process of society which ruins human nature. So sort of having a foot in both hemispheres presents me with just as many challenges on a day to day basis as advantages often times, as I admire people with strong senses of self and direction, people who are often outspoken and who become successful because they only do what they want to do. But it’s my beliefs in the interconnectedness of everything which makes that difficult for me to do.
Maybe even more to the point, theoretical physics and Buddhism tend to work well together as they are both reliant on a strong rational viewpoint of reality which believes that reality is an illusion, and it is only through study, practice and contemplation of it with the right tools that allows people to catch glimpses of the world without the illusion.
So long story short, at least half the time it’s harder to see myself as an individual with the right to pursue my best interests—even, and especially at the expense of others at times—than it is for me to see myself as part of an interconnected and interdependent whole. That’s many times just as true for the natural world as it is the human one. Plus, I’m not averse to the belief in some sort of global planetary (if not universal) consciousness, like Gaia or something along those line, of which we are all a part, even if we don’t recognize ourselves as such. In many ways I think that is a very real possibility, and that it’s this concept which is hidden behind the veil of illusion that Buddhism and Science seek to pull back. In reality, it is the concept of ‘I’ or ‘me’ that we have which is the illusion.
No desire to become a monk though, so I try to enjoy being a lay Buddhist, while holding onto my Buddhist beliefs. Many of these views are backed up by my Buddhist study, and the theory of the illusion of self tends to play well with many of the ideas of physics and how they add up to ‘consciousness’ although the idea of ‘self’ is somewhat less supported. There is no ‘self’ in reality, only the illusion of self, but in Western culture this idea is very difficult to stomach. “Of course there is a self!” “I’m me!”
But the fact we can’t find it is sort of a good indication that it’s not what we think it is. The illusion of self is what causes suffering, life is suffering, there is cessation from suffering, it is the study and practice of the Dharma, so on and so on. The reduction of suffering is a pretty consistent theme in most worthwhile human endeavors, but it seems to me that the race to create artificial life is bound to produce suffering. I’m of the opinion that heading that off at the pass is a pretty noble cause, which is why I’ve been thinking and trying to write about ethics in technology for a while.
I think this Western bias of creating AI which is self aware, and the search for ‘consciousness’ and ‘self’ in order to replicate it artificially is causing a lot of suffering for ML and AI researchers already anyway! lol
But I could be wrong about a lot of this. I can certainly see where this idea of Expanded Mind lends itself to valuing the creation of self driving cars and smart cities. But I have my reasons for why I think that at this point we are still making the same cognitive mistakes which have led to the creation of so many of the worlds problems already. And without clearing those issues up first, we really are harnessing the raw awesome power of distributed computing and neural networks to miss the target by an astronomical distance instead of just by a mile this time.
Not to be fatalistic about it, of course, but I really hope I can put my ideas into words and pictures well enough to bring my concerns to the right people. Like I said in an earlier post, I really hoped to start a non-profit so I could address these concerns in a more rigorous and targeted way, but I’ve got no experience as a leader or in running a business. If I can at least make a start on some of it by starting a conversation which can create some influence, that’s cool. However, I am tired of being a starving artist. In the best of all possible worlds, I’d be rich and wouldn’t really care about these things, but I’d settle for being able to make a living working on trying to solve some of the worlds problems.
Heading off the coming robot revolution is a little ways off I think, though. Hopefully! :)
I’m a little curious about your background, and were you the one that produced that video? If so, kudos, video production isn’t easy.
I think what the video was point at is that there are a number of encoding modes, but all result in the storing and/or processing of information with the same end effect that we call “memory” when brains do it. As for Mary losing her notebook or Steve losing his arms, I’m afraid both accident and injury can lead to memory loss and cognitive dysfunction in the usual sense as well. The notebook and data files, on the other hand, have different decay rates from memories in a brain, and may be useful in different ways than their biological counterparts. The use of environmental features to create memory and association provides durability beyond that of the brain, and allows for the possibility of multiple users. The latter is why I brought Extended Mind into the discussion of culture. Remember, it’s not the artifacts themselves that create mind, but (as you observed) the ways we relate to them and they relate to each other. Importantly, this sort of extension is happening all the time automatically. e.g. Driving extends the mind-body complex to include the vehicle and any information its instrument panels display, especially after we achieve enough practice to use the controls without having to consciously think about the process. As long as we can’t help doing it anyway, we might as well use Extended Mind on purpose and try to optimize whatever we can. That includes on the multi-user level of Culture. And that is one of the huge benefits of learning to see less rigid boundaries between the “internal” and “external”.
(FAQ: Who is this Eliezer guy I keep hearing about?)
Though, to be fair, I still haven’t found the original source. I may be misattributing something written by somebody else I was reading at the same time as the Sequences.
BTW, I’d guess that this question may be the reason somebody downvoted your comment with no explanation[1]. I’ve noticed that comments asking questions that are answered in the FAQ tend to have negative karma.
[^1] This is a bit of a pet peeve of mine. I think if you feel strongly enough to vote something down, you should at least have the courtesy and courage to tell the author why! That’s especially true for longer comments and posts. I think the author deserves to know what feature of their writing people “want to see less of”.
Not my video; I don’t have all the skills I’d need to produce that kind of output right now. ;) It’s a good explainer, though, and gave me a word for a process I’d been taking advantage of for years without naming it.
For a quick overview of my background: after I completed my schooling and got my degree in computer science, I finally had time to start my education. I’ve picked up a shallow-to-moderate understanding on a broad range of subjects since then. I try to learn at least enough that I can start asking less stupid questions, and I do my best to keep my knowledge and skills integrated as much as possible since being able to do something about it has more raw use than just knowing a thing. That said, I’ve noticed that I have no fear of starting off on some interesting tangent for, perhaps, a few years before I feel conversant in the topic and/or get distracted by the next shiny thing. Looks like you might have guessed, a few years ago I picked up western secular Buddhist studies, and I can say the change in perspective offered by the associated skills has continued to hold my interest the whole time (and proven beneficial in my social interactions). That’s recently been a strong influence on how I think about the topics we’ve been discussing, but LW and the Sequences have had longer to sink in, and I tend to read very widely from other sources as well.
I certainly hope you succeed!
Thanks for this and the first paragraph, I understand a little better what the Extended Mind concept is about. I tend to think of this sort of concept as External Memory, in that our phones, laptops, the Internet, notebooks and the like hold media like writing, video, audio and images, that can be rather directly encoded and decoded into meaning rather efficiently.
Whereas something like a studio workspace of the type presented in the video holds tools that don’t necessarily encode and decode meaning very directly or efficiently. For instance a person with drawing skill can quickly sketch out a picture of a coffee table, using a pen and paper to quickly encode the line drawing of a table, then show it to a carpenter who looks at the lines and how they are arranged and decodes it’s meaning directly as a table. But in order to actually make the table, the carpenter uses tools that modify a medium like wood, tools like a table saw, vise grips, glue etc. to create the actual table, and this process can take weeks.
This object is a physical object like the paper with the drawing, but the woodworking in this case requires much more physical labor, and it’s utility is different than the drawing. The drawing communicates an idea, the table organizes a physical space. Both have meaning to the user, although they mean different things and communicate those meanings differently. The differences in amount of work done, time to communicate as well as the durability of the tool in relation to the meaning it communicates, between the drawing and the table are meaningful to me, although I can see how the concepts can collapse into a single category included in an idea like the Extended Mind Space. This seems still the domain of Human Factors Engineering, Industrial/Graphic/Interior/Architectural/User Experience/User Interface/Industrial Psychology.
The idea of an idea like Extended Mindspace makes more sense to me now, and I think the car analogy works well to illustrate how the tools we use can become extensions of us. They augment our innate abilities and change our neural wiring to include them and their operation into our ideas of what we can do and who we are. Am I a driver or a pedestrian? How fast can I get from my house to the store? I think of this is an internalization of an external object as opposed to the externalization of my internal mind, but in many ways it’s both, as the line between internal and external is a constantly shifting one. This is a topic I’ve dealt with a little in my writing on the development of consciousness, so I’m glad to have the opportunity to look at it from different angles.
I felt a little sheepish when I realized the answer to my question “who is EY?′ At the moment I was writing I just honestly could not figure out who you were referring to, as his name or initials hadn’t come up in our discussion up until that point. If you had referred to him by his whole name I would’ve known who you were referring to, but the use of his initials threw me lol.
I admit I was a little disappointed in the negative Karma (especially as a Buddhist who really tries to avoid creating negative Karma lol) and I was further disappointed that there was no explanation. This is in the Open Question section for newbies too right? Anyways, thanks for the explanation.
Do you have any particular areas of interest?
Late last year I got my A+ and Network+ certifications and was attempting to get work in the IT field before the pandemic shut everything down, so I can honestly say that my knowledge of computers and networks is a lot better now then they were before I took those classes. I was interested in Cyber Security more than the Network Engineering career track at the time, although I did contemplate a Computer Science degree. I truly believe the fact that most people are pretty much oblivious as to how all these computers and networks actually work at the component and software level is a tragedy. We literally entrust our lives to these devices and communication systems, but to most people it’s something akin to magic.
I have an interest in Quantum Computing too as it jibes well with a major theme in my thinking, namely the problems with Binary thinking. That is where a lot of my conceptual work comes from, and I’ve been trying to understand how we might make use of Quantum Computing. I tried reading The Holographic Universe in the 90′s and was greatly influenced by the ideas of ‘Fuzzy logic’ around that time, as I’ve always been interested in the latest cutting edge science and tech, but frankly in the last decade it’s become increasingly hard to keep up on all of it.
I tend to agree, although from what I hear and see on the internet, often times people with the technical skills struggle with finding good reasons to do their thing. They know how to do something, but don’t know what to do with it.
My schooling was basically in conceptual art, and what my teachers did was to come up with a concept, and then hire people with the technical skills to actually create the thing well. The upshot was that if one of my professors came up with a concept for a piece of public art that required bronze casting on an industrial scale, it was often a welcome challenge to the people at the metal shop who were usually tired of the monotony of their work anyway. When a job with a unique set of challenges came along, it stretched their abilities in some pretty rewarding ways, and at the same time leaving the metal work to experts was a far better idea for my professor than trying to figure out how to do it himself.
Besides, that’s what teamwork is for! I did an internship with a large multinational corp in 2013, and ended up working with a whole team of engineers, psychologists, and designers. During the second half of the internship, what I was doing was essentially researching other peoples jobs in order to prototype technological solutions to augment their workflow. In that sense, I think good design always involves putting yourself as the designer, into the shoes of people doing work you don’t know how to do yourself, so that you can give an outside perspective. But as a user experience designer, the amount of psychology you need to understand in order to design better experiences means learning to understand how other people understand. How best to produce, and the actual act of producing the solution? That’s more of an engineering concern, and not necessarily the strength of a designer.
What types of skills did you pick up?
I practice lay Tibetan Buddhism. I spent about 20 years studying Buddhism and practicing it here and there, reading books and watching videos, meditating on the basic precepts, but finally took refuge under Garchen Rinpoche in 2010 I think. It seemed time to formalize my relationship to Buddhism as at that point it had influenced my thinking and behavior at a very deep level, and his story was so powerful it made sense to take the plunge under his watch. He spent 20 years in a Chinese labor camp, but still held onto his practice and belief in secret. Anyway, I was at a retreat he was teaching at and decided it was the right time. Im too tired right now to think about how my study and practice have developed my skillset.
Thanks, good wishes never hurt.
I used to be a pretty competent programmer, but I graduated at a time when the field was pretty flooded and couldn’t find a job right away. My skills quickly became out of date (my year specialized in PalmOS, of all things) and I stopped looking for work in the field. These days I’m almost fully lapsed in this area. I mostly use my understanding of algorithms and data structures to organize my day-to-day tasks where possible, and I usually have a clue what the tech headlines are talking about. I have used my programming background to automate some of my work tasks, but I haven’t needed to work on those programs in a few years now beyond basic maintenance.
Specialization is an excellent strategy! I find it pairs well with my style of learning: either I know enough about a thing to speak fluently with the experts, or I know how to learn that much. As I said before, practical skills are important too, and one reason is that almost all tasks have so much more detail than a how-to can convey. If I can learn to do the basics well, it helps me find the good experts too.
My meditation practice has resulted in a great deal of… let’s go with “maturation” over the last few years, at a speed that I would call inconsistent with the decades prior. As far as specific skills are concerned, I’d say the core of that is patience: patience with my mind, my tasks, and other people. The increased patience is most obvious to me as an improved set of social skills at work and with my family. Also, I’ve noticed I’m able to better abide my ADHD tendencies (diagnosed as a teen) resulting in more tasks getting finished, more tasks getting started in the first place, and better results from my work; again both at home and at my job.
My practice is mostly informed by Theravada, though I can’t say I’ve ever had any formal instruction with a teacher. It’s hard for me to take any significant time off from work and family (I’ve got a 5yo at home) to go on retreat an such, and I don’t know of anybody nearby, so my strategy is to read a lot, and make sure to get some cushion time in before bed and as much in-the-wild practice as I can remember to do while I go about my day. I listen to dharma talks, mostly from dharmaseed.org, and I’ve learned to focus my practice on whatever has the strongest ugh-field around it since that’s typically what I need the most work on in the moment.
I’d be curious to hear about how you do this at some point. Much of my own Graphic Design training has been about Information Design, and I’ve often used that to organize as well.
I have a concept of Algorithms, know roughly what they can be used for and roughly how they go about doing it, but because I’m not a programmer, I couldn’t distinguish one from another one if I saw them side by side. Data structures are also an interest, Databases and all that stuff. Info isn’t any good if you store it improperly and can’t retreive what you’re looking for when you’re looking for it!
PalmOs. I remember my first PDA, and it wasn’t my only PDA. I can honestly say I think I’ve single-handedly kept the tech sector in business with all the ‘latest tech’ I’ve bought over the years. Not only has the software changed since then, but so has the hardware. Whoosh! And now it’s all been crammed into a smartphone.
Agreed. Plus I’m pretty sure there isn’t a single domain where understanding of the advanced stuff isn’t helped by a strong grounding in the basics. Is that why you came to LW in the first place?
Not to give meditation short shrift, but I’ve no doubt becoming a father probably helped in that regard too. I can definitely say though, I noticed maturation in myself when I was meditating, and it did help me develop my interpersonal relationship skills.
Can’t say as I recall. It’s been a good while! But it’s part of the reason I’m still around after (checks comment history) probably more than a decade.
I certainly consider my kid one of my most important teachers! Though I doubt I would have had the presence and patience, or perhaps even notice the opportunity to learn many of the lessons I’ve assimilated by being a parent if I lacked the support of routine meditation.