As a reference, some hardcore meditators have tried a more extreme version of this under the name “Actual Freedom” with the goal of essentially eliminating all affect and ending suffering in that way. The name comes from this site, which originated the approach, but it’s, well, a bit on the nutty side of the sanity spectrum. (I mean, just look at it.) Better information is available on the Dharma Overground, a meditation site run by Daniel Ingram who’s been mentioned already a couple of times here.
As far as I understand Actual Freedom, the idea is basically to trace exactly moment-to-moment the emotional changes one is going through. That way, one can perceive exactly when emotions arise and they can be directly attended to and stopped.
I’m not endorsing this, but I thought that a more extreme view of this kind of method might be interesting. I’m mostly distancing myself because, even though some people seem to have achieved good results (e.g. Tarin Greco), almost all of them seem like nutjobs to me, but maybe they are really happy nutjobs. Also, they haven’t yet managed to provide clear, comprehensive descriptions of what they are actually doing and attempts of doing in-depth discussions have so far led to a lot of internet drama.
Well, there’s a difference between “bliss” and “equanimity”. The first is arguably “happier”, but the second much more peaceful. I’m not sure I agree with the idea of eliminating positive affect, but I can certainly understand where they are coming from. I’ve been bored with happiness myself and was at times relieved to return to a dissociated state that wasn’t clouded by emotion, regardless how positive. “Bliss”, “excitement”, “love” and so on have all, at times, done bad things to me, so getting rid of them at some times seems useful.
My main objections are that this a) looks like a false dichotomy (proper dissociation doesn’t have to eliminate emotion, just its “stickiness”) and b) it’s outright irreversible wireheading. It might be good, but if it turns out that there are better options, then you just screwed yourself out of them.
it’s outright irreversible wireheading. It might be good, but if it turns out that there are better options, then you just screwed yourself out of them.
For one, they report emotions simply not coming up anymore without having to apply any method. There doesn’t seem to be an obvious way to undo that.
But more importantly, I strongly suspect it changes your values. Once you wirehead, you won’t want to un-wirehead. (Though a benevolent mad neuroscientist might still ‘save’ you.)
I accidentally lost emotions (disgust, then sorrow). They came back spontaneously once I got out of the situation that caused it, with only rather ordinary and reversible-seeming changes in when I feel them. Don’t know if this applies to generalized emotion-nuking.
What do you want to know? The methods are probably partially reproducible (though I’d expect high variance), but you seriously don’t want to.
I was under pretty heavy stress during my whole childhood and early adolescence, and gradually lost things as a result (self-control in many areas, some intelligence, some memory). I was also a neat freak and hated e.g. showering in a dirty bathtub (plus some mild sensory issues), but normal habituation tempered that. In mid-adolescence I found a way out, but it blew up on me and I went depressed/emotionally numb for a few years.
At one point I started being completely unaffected by disgusting things I had to do, even though I consciously knew I’d normally be. At one point I was perplexed and went digging for something in a trash bag mostly as a test. Moral disgust was also decreased, but didn’t completely disappear.
One or two years later, I also lost sorrow. When bad things happened, I felt indignation and anger and guilt and compassion and self-pity if applicable and all the rest of my usual reaction, but with a big gaping hole in the middle saying “Sorrow goes here”. It was confusing.
A few months after that, I moved, changed schools, and started work on a big plans, with the expectation I would get better and regain some of the lost functions. Sorrow came back in a few weeks—I was mulling over an unrequited crush, noticed I was sad, and was happy about being sad for the day. Disgust came back sometime later, slightly more gradually.
Now I have about normal (though wildly varying depending on body awareness) levels of disgust. My reaction to bad things has changed (roughly, I want to fight, not mourn) so it doesn’t include sorrow, but it doesn’t feel like “Error: emotions/sorrow not found” either. I think I could train to feel sad about bad events, but it doesn’t seem productive (I’m prone to self-pity). Sorrow is a pleasant emotion, a kind of luxury, to revel in over a crush or after a play with failed heroic sacrifices—not appropriate for 150000 deaths. Obviously this comes from my glee over getting sorrow back.
There doesn’t seem to be an obvious way to undo that.
blinks I’ve built emotions by observing that others have them and seeking to emulate it. The clearest example for me is that I didn’t use to have any real empathy/sympathy responses—people’s emotions were as meaningful to me as the state of a toy; it bothered me insomuch as it might mean my toy was broken, that’s it. These days I have a fairly robust sense of empathy, but I can still turn it on and off fairly easily, and I don’t let it interfere with exploration of more useful responses.
I’ve also done experiments with removing entire emotions for ~24 hours, setting specific external triggers that will snap me back (and making sure at least one person knows some of what I’ve done, so they can try to talk me out of it if I’ve accidentally wireheaded myself in to a state where I want to stay wireheaded)
That sounds bad. Wanting to eliminate negative affect I understand, but eliminating positive affect too sounds pointless and probably harmful.
Although the end goal is that of peace and harmony as evidenced by the Pure Consciousness Experience, the method to get there requires seeing three kinds of feelings: good feelings, bad feelings and felicitous feelings. The intent is to minimize the good and bad feelings, and maximize the felicitous and innocuous ones.
Some examples of -
good feelings: love, compassion, sympathy, belonging
bad feelings: anger, fear, sadness, boredom, hate, loneliness
A few questions, as I find Actual Freedom fascinating and actually meeting a sane practitioner is so rare.
So am I understanding you right that you are essentially replacing your emotional defaults, but you aren’t getting rid of emotions as a whole?
What distinguishes good feelings from felicitous ones? Why do you intent to get rid of compassion, for example? Is this basically an equanimity thing, were you realize that the “good” feelings still have the dukkha characteristic and so hanging out there won’t work (like the A&P), but the other ones don’t?
Another reason I ask is that I suspect that I do not (or only barely) have any of your example good feelings. I never felt I belonged, I don’t have compassion, and even though I experience something I’d call love, it isn’t about other people (long, messy story), so I doubt that’s what most people mean. Are there simpler, not-about-other-people feelings that belong in the good category?
Also, how exactly do you practice? Naively, I’d go into a high jhana, note my emotions and when an unwanted one arises, I’d take it apart (by seeing the three characteristics and enforcing equanimity), otherwise I’d try to solidify it. Is it something like that? I could never really understand the AF descriptions or methods.
If you don’t mind me asking, how did you get the PCE and what are your other attainments, as far as you know?
(If you do have experience with dissociative drugs, I’d love to hear how they relate to AF. There seems to be a special kind of equanimity I can get to through DXM that I can’t reach from the normal jhanas/nanas, but I’m currently having problems navigating the higher territory, so it might not be something special. There’s a distinct lack of emotions and fundamental worry and push/pull just go away. They don’t just become something-to-be-observed-but-not-identified-with as in normal equanimity, but they just… aren’t there. It is so tremendously peaceful. While lots of hardcore dharma folk have been acid heads, I barely know anyone who used dissociatives or even something like ayahuasca. I find this completely mysterious.)
I’m mostly distancing myself because, even though some people seem to have achieved good results (e.g. Tarin Greco), almost all of them seem like nutjobs to me, but maybe they are really happy nutjobs.
Exactly. Other than Tarin, Trent, Stephanie and maybe Peter, others don’t seem pleasantly normal to me at all. I’m glad that I experienced PCEs, else I would have easily turned away from Actualism with much haste as there is much to detest the way it is presented.
Great post!
As a reference, some hardcore meditators have tried a more extreme version of this under the name “Actual Freedom” with the goal of essentially eliminating all affect and ending suffering in that way. The name comes from this site, which originated the approach, but it’s, well, a bit on the nutty side of the sanity spectrum. (I mean, just look at it.) Better information is available on the Dharma Overground, a meditation site run by Daniel Ingram who’s been mentioned already a couple of times here.
As far as I understand Actual Freedom, the idea is basically to trace exactly moment-to-moment the emotional changes one is going through. That way, one can perceive exactly when emotions arise and they can be directly attended to and stopped.
I’m not endorsing this, but I thought that a more extreme view of this kind of method might be interesting. I’m mostly distancing myself because, even though some people seem to have achieved good results (e.g. Tarin Greco), almost all of them seem like nutjobs to me, but maybe they are really happy nutjobs. Also, they haven’t yet managed to provide clear, comprehensive descriptions of what they are actually doing and attempts of doing in-depth discussions have so far led to a lot of internet drama.
That sounds bad. Wanting to eliminate negative affect I understand, but eliminating positive affect too sounds pointless and probably harmful.
Well, there’s a difference between “bliss” and “equanimity”. The first is arguably “happier”, but the second much more peaceful. I’m not sure I agree with the idea of eliminating positive affect, but I can certainly understand where they are coming from. I’ve been bored with happiness myself and was at times relieved to return to a dissociated state that wasn’t clouded by emotion, regardless how positive. “Bliss”, “excitement”, “love” and so on have all, at times, done bad things to me, so getting rid of them at some times seems useful.
My main objections are that this a) looks like a false dichotomy (proper dissociation doesn’t have to eliminate emotion, just its “stickiness”) and b) it’s outright irreversible wireheading. It might be good, but if it turns out that there are better options, then you just screwed yourself out of them.
Why should it be particularly irreversible?
For one, they report emotions simply not coming up anymore without having to apply any method. There doesn’t seem to be an obvious way to undo that.
But more importantly, I strongly suspect it changes your values. Once you wirehead, you won’t want to un-wirehead. (Though a benevolent mad neuroscientist might still ‘save’ you.)
I accidentally lost emotions (disgust, then sorrow). They came back spontaneously once I got out of the situation that caused it, with only rather ordinary and reversible-seeming changes in when I feel them. Don’t know if this applies to generalized emotion-nuking.
Are you willing to share some of the details or at least methods? That sounds like an interesting story.
What do you want to know? The methods are probably partially reproducible (though I’d expect high variance), but you seriously don’t want to.
I was under pretty heavy stress during my whole childhood and early adolescence, and gradually lost things as a result (self-control in many areas, some intelligence, some memory). I was also a neat freak and hated e.g. showering in a dirty bathtub (plus some mild sensory issues), but normal habituation tempered that. In mid-adolescence I found a way out, but it blew up on me and I went depressed/emotionally numb for a few years.
At one point I started being completely unaffected by disgusting things I had to do, even though I consciously knew I’d normally be. At one point I was perplexed and went digging for something in a trash bag mostly as a test. Moral disgust was also decreased, but didn’t completely disappear.
One or two years later, I also lost sorrow. When bad things happened, I felt indignation and anger and guilt and compassion and self-pity if applicable and all the rest of my usual reaction, but with a big gaping hole in the middle saying “Sorrow goes here”. It was confusing.
A few months after that, I moved, changed schools, and started work on a big plans, with the expectation I would get better and regain some of the lost functions. Sorrow came back in a few weeks—I was mulling over an unrequited crush, noticed I was sad, and was happy about being sad for the day. Disgust came back sometime later, slightly more gradually.
Now I have about normal (though wildly varying depending on body awareness) levels of disgust. My reaction to bad things has changed (roughly, I want to fight, not mourn) so it doesn’t include sorrow, but it doesn’t feel like “Error: emotions/sorrow not found” either. I think I could train to feel sad about bad events, but it doesn’t seem productive (I’m prone to self-pity). Sorrow is a pleasant emotion, a kind of luxury, to revel in over a crush or after a play with failed heroic sacrifices—not appropriate for 150000 deaths. Obviously this comes from my glee over getting sorrow back.
Interesting.. Thanks for the reply.
I think I’ll pass on replicating it :p
blinks I’ve built emotions by observing that others have them and seeking to emulate it. The clearest example for me is that I didn’t use to have any real empathy/sympathy responses—people’s emotions were as meaningful to me as the state of a toy; it bothered me insomuch as it might mean my toy was broken, that’s it. These days I have a fairly robust sense of empathy, but I can still turn it on and off fairly easily, and I don’t let it interfere with exploration of more useful responses.
I’ve also done experiments with removing entire emotions for ~24 hours, setting specific external triggers that will snap me back (and making sure at least one person knows some of what I’ve done, so they can try to talk me out of it if I’ve accidentally wireheaded myself in to a state where I want to stay wireheaded)
Disclaimer: I practice this method myself.
Although the end goal is that of peace and harmony as evidenced by the Pure Consciousness Experience, the method to get there requires seeing three kinds of feelings: good feelings, bad feelings and felicitous feelings. The intent is to minimize the good and bad feelings, and maximize the felicitous and innocuous ones.
Some examples of -
good feelings: love, compassion, sympathy, belonging
bad feelings: anger, fear, sadness, boredom, hate, loneliness
felicitous feelings: joy, delight, fun, marvel, wonder
A few questions, as I find Actual Freedom fascinating and actually meeting a sane practitioner is so rare.
So am I understanding you right that you are essentially replacing your emotional defaults, but you aren’t getting rid of emotions as a whole?
What distinguishes good feelings from felicitous ones? Why do you intent to get rid of compassion, for example? Is this basically an equanimity thing, were you realize that the “good” feelings still have the dukkha characteristic and so hanging out there won’t work (like the A&P), but the other ones don’t?
Another reason I ask is that I suspect that I do not (or only barely) have any of your example good feelings. I never felt I belonged, I don’t have compassion, and even though I experience something I’d call love, it isn’t about other people (long, messy story), so I doubt that’s what most people mean. Are there simpler, not-about-other-people feelings that belong in the good category?
Also, how exactly do you practice? Naively, I’d go into a high jhana, note my emotions and when an unwanted one arises, I’d take it apart (by seeing the three characteristics and enforcing equanimity), otherwise I’d try to solidify it. Is it something like that? I could never really understand the AF descriptions or methods.
If you don’t mind me asking, how did you get the PCE and what are your other attainments, as far as you know?
(If you do have experience with dissociative drugs, I’d love to hear how they relate to AF. There seems to be a special kind of equanimity I can get to through DXM that I can’t reach from the normal jhanas/nanas, but I’m currently having problems navigating the higher territory, so it might not be something special. There’s a distinct lack of emotions and fundamental worry and push/pull just go away. They don’t just become something-to-be-observed-but-not-identified-with as in normal equanimity, but they just… aren’t there. It is so tremendously peaceful. While lots of hardcore dharma folk have been acid heads, I barely know anyone who used dissociatives or even something like ayahuasca. I find this completely mysterious.)
Exactly. Other than Tarin, Trent, Stephanie and maybe Peter, others don’t seem pleasantly normal to me at all. I’m glad that I experienced PCEs, else I would have easily turned away from Actualism with much haste as there is much to detest the way it is presented.