Are you are suggesting that people just have a desire to cause suffering and that their reasons (dieties, revenge, punishment, etc.) are mostly just attempts to frame that desire in a personally acceptable manner? I ask because it seems like most people probably just don’t enjoy watching just anyone suffer, they tend to target other groups which suggests a more strategic reason than just enjoying cruelty.
Of course empathy-lacking individuals exist, but make up a small portion of the population. It seems more likely that any given instance of one person enjoying harming another is due to instrumental value rather than terminal.
But individuals who have empathy with some others, but not other others, are more common. They can have terminal values to cause suffering for that portion of the population they don’t have empathy with.
But individuals who have empathy with some others, but not other others, are more common. They can have terminal values to cause suffering for that portion of the population they don’t have empathy with.
I’m having a hard time getting this. Can you provide an example where the lack of empathy for some group isn’t driven by another value? My impression is that empathy is a normal human trait and that socializing teaches us who is worthy of empathy and who isn’t, but then the lack of empathy is instrumental (because it serves to further the goals of society). People who actually lack empathy suffer from mental disorders like psychopathy as far as I know.
Any example I could give could be disputed because it’s always possible to reverse cause and effect and say “he only lacks empathy because of X” rather than “he believes X due to lack of empathy”.
And my impression is that empathy towards only the in-group is a normal human trait and that it is often affected by society only in the trivial sense that society determines what the in-group is.
Any example I could give could be disputed because it’s always possible to reverse cause and effect and say “he only lacks empathy because of X” rather than “he believes X due to lack of empathy”.
Fair enough. It does seem like it would be difficult to tell those two things apart from the outside.
And my impression is that empathy towards only the in-group is a normal human trait and that it is often affected by society only in the trivial sense that society determines what the in-group is.
Also true (probably).
If you’re trying to get the best match between map and territory though, it’s worth looking for the motive for each particular evil. If you’re trying to reduce evil in the above-defined sense of enjoying causing involuntary suffering, doesn’t it make more sense to treat this as outgroup persecution rather than terminal “evil.” I guess my point was that I don’t think evil as a terminal goal exists in most people. There may be terminal goals for which evil is a hardwired strategy, but it’s more important to look at what those goals actually are if you’re going to try to minimize the evil. Maybe we can tweak the definition of outgroup. Maybe we can make the ingroup value something that the outgroup doesn’t and then “deprive” the outgroup of that thing as our form of persecution. Just saying that “evil” exists and is a driving force feels like a mysterious answer.
Vengefulness is a real emotion, as the grandparent implies. It leads you to take pleasure in the pain of people who you feel have harmed you or something you care about (see: most of the justice system). There are also people who take pleasure in anyone else’s pain. They are too few to matter much in explaining an organization the size of Al Qaeda, never mind “the terrorists” or “religious fanatics”.
Now, there may be confusion here about the phrase ‘because of our freedom’. There are moral reasons, and then there are causes. I don’t think Al Qaeda members perceive themselves as taking revenge on the West for the weakness of the Muslim world, nor as serving the house of Saud. I also don’t believe either Al Qaeda or Isil would exist if the Muslim world were stronger relative to the West, nor that they’d exist without the machinations of the house of Saud. And I usually couldn’t care less about terrorists’ “moral” reasons.
Are you are suggesting that people just have a desire to cause suffering and that their reasons (dieties, revenge, punishment, etc.) are mostly just attempts to frame that desire in a personally acceptable manner? I ask because it seems like most people probably just don’t enjoy watching just anyone suffer, they tend to target other groups which suggests a more strategic reason than just enjoying cruelty.
Yes, harming others is a terminal value for evil people.
Of course empathy-lacking individuals exist, but make up a small portion of the population. It seems more likely that any given instance of one person enjoying harming another is due to instrumental value rather than terminal.
But individuals who have empathy with some others, but not other others, are more common. They can have terminal values to cause suffering for that portion of the population they don’t have empathy with.
I’m having a hard time getting this. Can you provide an example where the lack of empathy for some group isn’t driven by another value? My impression is that empathy is a normal human trait and that socializing teaches us who is worthy of empathy and who isn’t, but then the lack of empathy is instrumental (because it serves to further the goals of society). People who actually lack empathy suffer from mental disorders like psychopathy as far as I know.
Any example I could give could be disputed because it’s always possible to reverse cause and effect and say “he only lacks empathy because of X” rather than “he believes X due to lack of empathy”.
And my impression is that empathy towards only the in-group is a normal human trait and that it is often affected by society only in the trivial sense that society determines what the in-group is.
Fair enough. It does seem like it would be difficult to tell those two things apart from the outside.
Also true (probably).
If you’re trying to get the best match between map and territory though, it’s worth looking for the motive for each particular evil. If you’re trying to reduce evil in the above-defined sense of enjoying causing involuntary suffering, doesn’t it make more sense to treat this as outgroup persecution rather than terminal “evil.” I guess my point was that I don’t think evil as a terminal goal exists in most people. There may be terminal goals for which evil is a hardwired strategy, but it’s more important to look at what those goals actually are if you’re going to try to minimize the evil. Maybe we can tweak the definition of outgroup. Maybe we can make the ingroup value something that the outgroup doesn’t and then “deprive” the outgroup of that thing as our form of persecution. Just saying that “evil” exists and is a driving force feels like a mysterious answer.
Vengefulness is a real emotion, as the grandparent implies. It leads you to take pleasure in the pain of people who you feel have harmed you or something you care about (see: most of the justice system). There are also people who take pleasure in anyone else’s pain. They are too few to matter much in explaining an organization the size of Al Qaeda, never mind “the terrorists” or “religious fanatics”.
Now, there may be confusion here about the phrase ‘because of our freedom’. There are moral reasons, and then there are causes. I don’t think Al Qaeda members perceive themselves as taking revenge on the West for the weakness of the Muslim world, nor as serving the house of Saud. I also don’t believe either Al Qaeda or Isil would exist if the Muslim world were stronger relative to the West, nor that they’d exist without the machinations of the house of Saud. And I usually couldn’t care less about terrorists’ “moral” reasons.