Why do they want to do storage? Surely the important thing is to get a high quality standby and transport organisation in place; final cooldown and storage can be deferred to an existing provider. That’s something they can start with less investment and without construction.
I personally spent some time trying to get signed up with Alcor, and eventually gave up in frustration. I understand they have also had some funding issues of late. I do not have great confidence in their ability to remain operational over the next few decades. If an organisation that looks competent and reliable could open a facility in Australia, I would feel much safer than if it were something arranged to send me off to the US.
That said, I’d be a lot happier with either option than with the current state of affairs.
I pushed all the way through. I’m signed up with Alcor, but feel very much as you do about how hard signup was, and how unlikely it is that Alcor will survive very long. I know only one other Australian who tried to sign up, and he also gave up in frustration.
(I’ve tried to volunteer my time and efforts to Alcor, and they can’t organise enough to accept my help.)
Why do they want to do storage? Surely the important thing is to get a high quality standby and transport organisation in place; final cooldown and storage can be deferred to an existing provider. That’s something they can start with less investment and without construction.
That was my thought. I would be much more comfortable if they did the prep and sent the corpsicles off to somewhere more established.
You pack a crate with dry ice. One is a one-shot job, the other is a potentially century-long commitment. One needs proper premises, the other just some space to work.
For example bringing frozen people to Antarctica would be costly, but you would save a lot of money for keeping them cold for centuries. In a long term...
Of course, there would be other costs, such as protecting the storage from vandalism. That could be expensive in Antarctica. But those costs would not grow in proportion to number of people stored, so after enough people are frozen, this might become cheaper.
For example bringing frozen people to Antarctica would be costly, but you would save a lot of money for keeping them cold for centuries. In a long term...
I’m not sure you would. From what I recall the corpsicles need to be stored at colder than Antarctic temperatures. That means you need to have a significant energy source or steadily import liquid. It could be cheaper to just buy slightly better insulation to offset the greater temperature difference between the respective external environments.
Agreed that bringing mass into orbit costs something, as does protecting that mass from the dangers of space (e.g., debris). Bringing mass to Antarctica costs something, too, as does protecting that mass from the dangers of Antarctica (e.g., weather).
It may well be that orbit is more expensive than Antarctica.
But if bringing mass to Antarctica is worthwhile because the energy savings associated with the average temperature differential between Antarctica and wherever the brains were initially cryopreserved offsets the upfront costs, it may well be that the greater temperature differential between space and wherever the brains were initially cryopreserved would similarly offset the greater upfront costs.
They’d have to be very motivated “vandals”, though. (More like people with an agenda than bored/frustrated people the word vandals usually suggests to me.)
If I have N% confidence that continuing to cryopreserve a particular mass of brain tissue will ultimately cause person X to experience Y QALYs, then presumably the value V of continuing such cryopreservation to me is roughly equivalent to the value of N*Y QALYs for X. If I believe Y is very large and N is not offsettingly small, and I significantly value QALYs for X, then presumably V is larger than the value of large sums of money.
In other words, the extortion potential here is enormous. Some people are motivated by that sort of thing.
In other words, the extortion potential here is enormous. Some people are motivated by that sort of thing.
It kind of makes me motivated to put up a sufficiently intimidating fence with a sign “Warning: Trespassers will be forcibly cryopreserved, reanimated then tortured indefinitely.”
Would not work if the trespassers believe that cryopreservation does not work, but would like to extort money from people who believe that cryopreservation works.
(As an analogy, if an atheist wants to make money by kidnapping the Pope, it does not stop them if you say: “but if you do that, the Pope will excommunicate you”.)
Would not work if the trespassers believe that cryopreservation does not work, but would like to extort money from people who believe that cryopreservation works.
It kind of does. “Forcibly cryopreserved” means you kill them.
As an analogy, if an atheist wants to make money by kidnapping the Pope, it does not stop them if you say: “but if you do that, the Pope will excommunicate you”.
… making the correct analogy “The pope will kill you then you will spend eternity in hell.”
Why do they want to do storage? Surely the important thing is to get a high quality standby and transport organisation in place; final cooldown and storage can be deferred to an existing provider. That’s something they can start with less investment and without construction.
I personally spent some time trying to get signed up with Alcor, and eventually gave up in frustration. I understand they have also had some funding issues of late. I do not have great confidence in their ability to remain operational over the next few decades. If an organisation that looks competent and reliable could open a facility in Australia, I would feel much safer than if it were something arranged to send me off to the US.
That said, I’d be a lot happier with either option than with the current state of affairs.
I pushed all the way through. I’m signed up with Alcor, but feel very much as you do about how hard signup was, and how unlikely it is that Alcor will survive very long. I know only one other Australian who tried to sign up, and he also gave up in frustration.
(I’ve tried to volunteer my time and efforts to Alcor, and they can’t organise enough to accept my help.)
Why would you expect a new organisation to be better than Alcor, on average?
You might expect that if Alcor is below the average quality of a random new organization.
That was my thought. I would be much more comfortable if they did the prep and sent the corpsicles off to somewhere more established.
They might provide this service as well. AFAIK, KrioRus does.
Would it actually be a good idea to consolidate all cryonics facilities to a single place? or even a couple early movers?
Not necessarily, and storage might b a good thing to start considering once you’ve already built a high quality standby and transport organisation.
What? Is shipping refrigerated people across oceans actually easier than storing them?
You pack a crate with dry ice. One is a one-shot job, the other is a potentially century-long commitment. One needs proper premises, the other just some space to work.
For example bringing frozen people to Antarctica would be costly, but you would save a lot of money for keeping them cold for centuries. In a long term...
Of course, there would be other costs, such as protecting the storage from vandalism. That could be expensive in Antarctica. But those costs would not grow in proportion to number of people stored, so after enough people are frozen, this might become cheaper.
I’m not sure you would. From what I recall the corpsicles need to be stored at colder than Antarctic temperatures. That means you need to have a significant energy source or steadily import liquid. It could be cheaper to just buy slightly better insulation to offset the greater temperature difference between the respective external environments.
I would think shooting frozen people into orbit would ultimately be even cheaper, by the same logic.
Bringing weight to orbit is expensive. In a long term, there is a risk of collision with space debris.
Agreed that bringing mass into orbit costs something, as does protecting that mass from the dangers of space (e.g., debris). Bringing mass to Antarctica costs something, too, as does protecting that mass from the dangers of Antarctica (e.g., weather).
It may well be that orbit is more expensive than Antarctica.
But if bringing mass to Antarctica is worthwhile because the energy savings associated with the average temperature differential between Antarctica and wherever the brains were initially cryopreserved offsets the upfront costs, it may well be that the greater temperature differential between space and wherever the brains were initially cryopreserved would similarly offset the greater upfront costs.
They’d have to be very motivated “vandals”, though. (More like people with an agenda than bored/frustrated people the word vandals usually suggests to me.)
If I have N% confidence that continuing to cryopreserve a particular mass of brain tissue will ultimately cause person X to experience Y QALYs, then presumably the value V of continuing such cryopreservation to me is roughly equivalent to the value of N*Y QALYs for X. If I believe Y is very large and N is not offsettingly small, and I significantly value QALYs for X, then presumably V is larger than the value of large sums of money.
In other words, the extortion potential here is enormous. Some people are motivated by that sort of thing.
It kind of makes me motivated to put up a sufficiently intimidating fence with a sign “Warning: Trespassers will be forcibly cryopreserved, reanimated then tortured indefinitely.”
Would not work if the trespassers believe that cryopreservation does not work, but would like to extort money from people who believe that cryopreservation works.
(As an analogy, if an atheist wants to make money by kidnapping the Pope, it does not stop them if you say: “but if you do that, the Pope will excommunicate you”.)
It kind of does. “Forcibly cryopreserved” means you kill them.
… making the correct analogy “The pope will kill you then you will spend eternity in hell.”