I’m not sure I want to like more people all that much.
I have a generally cheerful disposition, and I have no trouble with civility toward those I dislike. There have been people who clearly disliked me whom I thought well of nonetheless; I’ve met me, and I recognize this particular combination of attributes isn’t to everyone’s taste.
But I’ve never had a situation where I wanted to make an effort to like someone who I didn’t like. I think the goals here are typically anti-productive, assuming reasonable socialization skills and some pre-existing friends.
It is useful to like people. For one thing, if you have to be around them, liking >them makes this far more pleasant. For another, well, they can often tell, and if >they know you to like them this will often be instrumentally useful to you.
Let’s take a look at these advantages:
More pleasant. Yes, true. Point well taken.
Puppeteering. OK, maybe a bit too harsh, but “instrumentally useful,” sounds like that. I certainly want people to do lots of things, but I don’t usually trade in on personal relationships quite that way.
Disadvantages:
Personal rot. There are qualities in people that it is unwise to overlook, because the cognitive dissonance is so strong. “He’s fun, except for the light stealing,” is not going to lead to healthy thinking. This is inevitably corrupting.
If you’re admiring something that’s interesting but maybe not admirable, you’re changing yourself in some way that might not be good.
Failure to change people a little tiny bit. Yeah, your view toward the other human is unlikely to change them a lot if they’re adults, because people are bad at learning or attempting to learn new modes of socialization. (This is doubtless why Alicorn’s posts on these topics are popular; the deliberate reinvention and aiming of self is both impressive and interesting. And quite rare.) But a little change might be brought about through social cues that recreational puppy-stomping is frowned on.
A lot of effort that might be spent better elsewhere. Overall effort’s not fixed, so you might gain extra effort points by doing this, but there’s still got to be a net loss.
Premise rejection:
People know more about themselves than you do. As far as experiences, yes, As far as who they are and what they are good at… maybe not.
Anyway, it’s a very interesting post, much as I think it’s a bad idea. I note that I was and remain a big fan of niceness in most circumstances and a big fan of the niceness post linked at the top of this one. I think this is dangerous step past that.
On a side note, I apologize for failing to honor the tone norm in this thread and addressing the post. For whatever reason, I found the post more interesting than the comment thread, which I gather was moved over from Gawker.
Puppeteering. OK, maybe a bit too harsh, but “instrumentally useful,” sounds like that. I certainly want people to do lots of things, but I don’t usually trade in on personal relationships quite that way.
It is useful to me that my family buys me Christmas presents. This is because, every year, I receive items that it is good for me to have. This in no way diminishes the warmth, affection, and sincerity of the gifts. Similarly, the fact that it is useful to like people need not diminish the warmth, affection, and sincerity of that liking.
There are qualities in people that it is unwise to overlook, because the cognitive dissonance is so strong. “He’s fun, except for the light stealing,” is not going to lead to healthy thinking. This is inevitably corrupting.
I don’t think you should overlook dangerous qualities. For instance, I know a guy who is basically diagnoseably psychotic. He is great to have as a friend because he supplies good music recommendations and has encyclopedic knowledge of the intricacies of D&D rules and how to break them, but I do not want him to know where I live. The fact that he will never get my address if I can help it doesn’t prevent me from liking and appreciating his good qualities. (Incidentally, I don’t like this guy “on purpose”. He’s quite amusing enough to be liked naturally. But I still wouldn’t have him over for tea.)
Failure to change people a little tiny bit. Yeah, your view toward the other human is unlikely to change them a lot if they’re adults, because people are bad at learning or attempting to learn new modes of socialization.
Liking people is not counterproductive to changing their changeable behaviors. If I like someone, and they’re busily hoisting themselves by their own puppy-stomping petard, I will do my best to help them improve themselves. This is in their interests, which I will care about furthering because I like them. If someone I don’t like is practicing net negative behaviors, I’m inclined to stand back and watch them go up in flames as the backlash hits. Do you have any stories about helping folks you don’t like to be better people that you couldn’t have managed if you’d liked them?
The usefulness may not reduce the sincerity of the liking, but it certainly reduces the depth. If Steve gives me stuff, and I like him because of that usefulness, and then Steve stops giving me stuff… JRM no more like Steve. Viewing friendships as exchanges isn’t evil or wrong, but if it’s usefulness that’s the prime driver, that’s a different sort of friendship than one I really want.
There are qualities that are troublesome that aren’t physically dangerous. Affiliating yourself mentally with people who don’t care so much about the truth is likely to rub off. I’d like to think of myself as a particularly resilient and incorruptible person, but there’s a certain necessary diligence to retain that self-view (which I believe is related to actual resilience and incorruptibility.)
On liking people not being counterproductive to changing behaviors: You might be right. I was considering the (perhaps) increased willingness to tolerate troublesome behavior and the reward function of friendships coming to those who are troublesome in some serious way. It may depend on the people involved. Or I might just be wrong.
I think when we look at petty problems to determine dislikes (She likes the mundane and stupid American Idol, while I like the brilliant and intellectual Top Chef), that is indeed counterproductive. But most of the limited number of people I take an active dislike to.… I don’t want to try to be their friends. At all. And I think the world is a better place for my lack of trying.
I think the more serious and common error is to put up with malfeasing people past the point it’s reasonable. I also think people tend to trust statements from others overmuch, even when that person has a track record of untrustworthiness. For most, a post on “Staying Away From Hazardous Humans You Like,” would be more beneficial.
I don’t think this necessarily follows. If Steve stops giving you stuff, he’s still the guy who gave you stuff; you can still value him for the generosity/skill at picking out gifts/thoughtfulness/etc. that he exhibited then; and you can still think kindly of him whenever you use something he gave you.
Can you go into more detail on how these things may rub off?
:)
I don’t think you should be friends with everyone. But if you find that you do want to be friends with someone, it’s good to be able to.
I believe or disbelieve or am suspicious of statements by others for reasons other than how much I like them. (I do factor in my model of how much they like me, as I believe people are less likely to lie to people they like; but this doesn’t affect their epistemic hygiene, their background knowledge, their skills at rationality, or their susceptibility to fallacy.)
(I do factor in my model of how much they like me, as I believe people are less likely
to lie to people they like; but this doesn’t affect their epistemic hygiene, their
background knowledge, their skills at rationality, or their susceptibility to fallacy.)
I could conceive of situations where friends would be more likely to lie than strangers. A friend may lie about their actions if they care about your opinion of them and not care as much about the stranger’s opinion of them.
However, it may very well be that people who I like practice better epistemic hygiene. Indeed, I’ve found simply being around people who are more careful thinkers forces one to switch into a more careful thinking mode, because if you don’t, they’ll tear you into little tiny pieces. However, that probably doesn’t matter that much since detailed interaction can probably get you a better idea of how the person thinks more than this rough heuristic.
I’ll try to explain what I view as the advantages of liking people.
It’s instrumentally useful to give people the perception that you like them: they are more likely to like you, and to want to cooperate with you. Probably the best way to give people the perception that you like them is to actually like them.
There are qualities in people that it is unwise to overlook, because the cognitive dissonance is so strong. “He’s fun, except for the light stealing,” is not going to lead to healthy thinking. This is inevitably corrupting.
Yes, I agree. As someone with high Agreeableness and Openness, I’ve been burned in the past for being too trusting of people. This tendency is why people with high Agreeableness need to learn certain skills (alluded to by SarahC, including a healthy amount of suspicion. Similarly, Disagreeable people may need to learn to be more trusting and open towards people. Otherwise, even though they might avoid getting burned, they might shortchange themselves on positive interactions and connections with people.
An emotionally Agreeable person applying cognitive cynicism, and an emotionally Disagreeable person applying cognitive openness, could have the same estimates of people’s trustworthiness; they are just coming from different routes.
Anyway, it’s a very interesting post, much as I think it’s a bad idea. I note that I was and remain a big fan of niceness in most circumstances and a big fan of the niceness post linked at the top of this one. I think this is dangerous step past that.
Well, the best way to be nice is probably to genuinely like people. I agree with you that adopting such an attitude has risks; I just think that if you can mitigate those risks, an attitude of Agreeableness combined with some cognitive caution towards people and their motives, is a powerful combination in our society.
It’s instrumentally useful to give people the perception that you like them
Hmm. I’ve found that it’s most effective to give people the perception that you’re having fun and not judging them. The best way to give a perception like that is to actually have fun and conceal any snap judgments you make. This tactic doesn’t seem to have the downsides of liking the wrong people.
I’m not sure I want to like more people all that much.
I have a generally cheerful disposition, and I have no trouble with civility toward those I dislike. There have been people who clearly disliked me whom I thought well of nonetheless; I’ve met me, and I recognize this particular combination of attributes isn’t to everyone’s taste.
But I’ve never had a situation where I wanted to make an effort to like someone who I didn’t like. I think the goals here are typically anti-productive, assuming reasonable socialization skills and some pre-existing friends.
Let’s take a look at these advantages:
More pleasant. Yes, true. Point well taken.
Puppeteering. OK, maybe a bit too harsh, but “instrumentally useful,” sounds like that. I certainly want people to do lots of things, but I don’t usually trade in on personal relationships quite that way.
Disadvantages:
Personal rot. There are qualities in people that it is unwise to overlook, because the cognitive dissonance is so strong. “He’s fun, except for the light stealing,” is not going to lead to healthy thinking. This is inevitably corrupting.
If you’re admiring something that’s interesting but maybe not admirable, you’re changing yourself in some way that might not be good.
Failure to change people a little tiny bit. Yeah, your view toward the other human is unlikely to change them a lot if they’re adults, because people are bad at learning or attempting to learn new modes of socialization. (This is doubtless why Alicorn’s posts on these topics are popular; the deliberate reinvention and aiming of self is both impressive and interesting. And quite rare.) But a little change might be brought about through social cues that recreational puppy-stomping is frowned on.
A lot of effort that might be spent better elsewhere. Overall effort’s not fixed, so you might gain extra effort points by doing this, but there’s still got to be a net loss.
Premise rejection:
People know more about themselves than you do. As far as experiences, yes, As far as who they are and what they are good at… maybe not.
Anyway, it’s a very interesting post, much as I think it’s a bad idea. I note that I was and remain a big fan of niceness in most circumstances and a big fan of the niceness post linked at the top of this one. I think this is dangerous step past that.
On a side note, I apologize for failing to honor the tone norm in this thread and addressing the post. For whatever reason, I found the post more interesting than the comment thread, which I gather was moved over from Gawker.
--JRM
It is useful to me that my family buys me Christmas presents. This is because, every year, I receive items that it is good for me to have. This in no way diminishes the warmth, affection, and sincerity of the gifts. Similarly, the fact that it is useful to like people need not diminish the warmth, affection, and sincerity of that liking.
I don’t think you should overlook dangerous qualities. For instance, I know a guy who is basically diagnoseably psychotic. He is great to have as a friend because he supplies good music recommendations and has encyclopedic knowledge of the intricacies of D&D rules and how to break them, but I do not want him to know where I live. The fact that he will never get my address if I can help it doesn’t prevent me from liking and appreciating his good qualities. (Incidentally, I don’t like this guy “on purpose”. He’s quite amusing enough to be liked naturally. But I still wouldn’t have him over for tea.)
Liking people is not counterproductive to changing their changeable behaviors. If I like someone, and they’re busily hoisting themselves by their own puppy-stomping petard, I will do my best to help them improve themselves. This is in their interests, which I will care about furthering because I like them. If someone I don’t like is practicing net negative behaviors, I’m inclined to stand back and watch them go up in flames as the backlash hits. Do you have any stories about helping folks you don’t like to be better people that you couldn’t have managed if you’d liked them?
The usefulness may not reduce the sincerity of the liking, but it certainly reduces the depth. If Steve gives me stuff, and I like him because of that usefulness, and then Steve stops giving me stuff… JRM no more like Steve. Viewing friendships as exchanges isn’t evil or wrong, but if it’s usefulness that’s the prime driver, that’s a different sort of friendship than one I really want.
There are qualities that are troublesome that aren’t physically dangerous. Affiliating yourself mentally with people who don’t care so much about the truth is likely to rub off. I’d like to think of myself as a particularly resilient and incorruptible person, but there’s a certain necessary diligence to retain that self-view (which I believe is related to actual resilience and incorruptibility.)
On liking people not being counterproductive to changing behaviors: You might be right. I was considering the (perhaps) increased willingness to tolerate troublesome behavior and the reward function of friendships coming to those who are troublesome in some serious way. It may depend on the people involved. Or I might just be wrong.
I think when we look at petty problems to determine dislikes (She likes the mundane and stupid American Idol, while I like the brilliant and intellectual Top Chef), that is indeed counterproductive. But most of the limited number of people I take an active dislike to.… I don’t want to try to be their friends. At all. And I think the world is a better place for my lack of trying.
I think the more serious and common error is to put up with malfeasing people past the point it’s reasonable. I also think people tend to trust statements from others overmuch, even when that person has a track record of untrustworthiness. For most, a post on “Staying Away From Hazardous Humans You Like,” would be more beneficial.
--JRM
I don’t think this necessarily follows. If Steve stops giving you stuff, he’s still the guy who gave you stuff; you can still value him for the generosity/skill at picking out gifts/thoughtfulness/etc. that he exhibited then; and you can still think kindly of him whenever you use something he gave you.
Can you go into more detail on how these things may rub off?
:)
I don’t think you should be friends with everyone. But if you find that you do want to be friends with someone, it’s good to be able to.
I believe or disbelieve or am suspicious of statements by others for reasons other than how much I like them. (I do factor in my model of how much they like me, as I believe people are less likely to lie to people they like; but this doesn’t affect their epistemic hygiene, their background knowledge, their skills at rationality, or their susceptibility to fallacy.)
I could conceive of situations where friends would be more likely to lie than strangers. A friend may lie about their actions if they care about your opinion of them and not care as much about the stranger’s opinion of them.
However, it may very well be that people who I like practice better epistemic hygiene. Indeed, I’ve found simply being around people who are more careful thinkers forces one to switch into a more careful thinking mode, because if you don’t, they’ll tear you into little tiny pieces. However, that probably doesn’t matter that much since detailed interaction can probably get you a better idea of how the person thinks more than this rough heuristic.
I’ll try to explain what I view as the advantages of liking people.
It’s instrumentally useful to give people the perception that you like them: they are more likely to like you, and to want to cooperate with you. Probably the best way to give people the perception that you like them is to actually like them.
Yes, I agree. As someone with high Agreeableness and Openness, I’ve been burned in the past for being too trusting of people. This tendency is why people with high Agreeableness need to learn certain skills (alluded to by SarahC, including a healthy amount of suspicion. Similarly, Disagreeable people may need to learn to be more trusting and open towards people. Otherwise, even though they might avoid getting burned, they might shortchange themselves on positive interactions and connections with people.
An emotionally Agreeable person applying cognitive cynicism, and an emotionally Disagreeable person applying cognitive openness, could have the same estimates of people’s trustworthiness; they are just coming from different routes.
Well, the best way to be nice is probably to genuinely like people. I agree with you that adopting such an attitude has risks; I just think that if you can mitigate those risks, an attitude of Agreeableness combined with some cognitive caution towards people and their motives, is a powerful combination in our society.
Hmm. I’ve found that it’s most effective to give people the perception that you’re having fun and not judging them. The best way to give a perception like that is to actually have fun and conceal any snap judgments you make. This tactic doesn’t seem to have the downsides of liking the wrong people.