I can’t speak for his blog writings (since I have only read a few articles), but I have read his book on Nozick and am almost done with his book on Aquinas.
Show that some medieval philosopher said the jargon claim was nonsense.
Accuse the original atheist of spewing nonsense and being unaware of the true philosophical underpinnings of Christianity.
I have no reason to doubt your claim, but it seems plausible that he is right in this case (if, in fact, he does so accuse atheists in this way). Why? Because I had 4 years of Bible class in high school and studied philosophy of religion at university and yet still only understood the straw man versions (most likely unintentional straw men, mind you) of the arguments made by “some medieval philosopher”, or had any idea about the philosophical “underpinnings of Christianity”.
It wasn’t until I got interested enough in the history of science to actually bother to read primary texts (in astronomy, alchemy, and “physics”) that I was able to get my mind situated in such a way that I could look around at the world from within these alien Medieval paradigms and see that some of these claims weren’t just silly bullshit.
Anyway, if it takes such a roundabout sequence of obscure studies to even begin to make sense of this stuff, it is no wonder that modern atheists (or virtually all Christians, for that matter) have trouble getting it right.
I’ve noticed that reading old texts with alien mindsets is an instant idea generator for fantasy settings. (Seriously, I don’t get I’ve never heard anyone suggest the notion of “fantasy writers should read old texts” before. They’re just filled with peculiar ideas about the world that one can import directly to a fantasy setting.) Would you happen to have any recommendations on texts that would be particularly suitable for this?
Christian theology offers rich pickings. Did you know it has a closed timelike loop? Satan was cast out from heaven because he refused God’s command to bow to Man, which the angels must do (despite man being created a little lower than the angels) because God incarnated as a man, which he did to redeem Man from his fall, who fell because Satan tempted him, because Satan sought revenge upon God, because God cast him out from heaven. There is also the concept of a “type of Christ”, where “type” has an old sense of “prototype”. King David, Abraham, and Adam are examples. In science-fictional terms, the eruption of God into Time in the person of Jesus was such a momentous event that it sent back echoes of itself into the past, calling into being the history that called the Incarnation into being.
Parallelisms between techno-singularitarian ideas and Christian notions of salvation have often been made, usually with the implication that singularitarianism is just disguised religion and the technological arguments are mere rationalisation (“rapture of the nerds”). But suppose it’s the other way round? Religion results from mankind’s dim groping towards the techno-singularitarian truth, assisted by the occasional superpowerful alien or entity from outside the Matrix, inciting the major prophets and Messiah figures of history. The enlightenment that most religious traditions have sought consists of access to the real truth of things, but limited human minds are unable to comprehend it. Religion is, to use Vernor Vinge’s term, “godshatter”.
And the Jews are clearly an alien genetic/memetic breeding project.
My local evangelist insists that angels are lower than humans. We’re children, not servants. So they’re supposed to obey us (they work for the family), and we only have to obey them insofar as they convey messages from Dad. If we mess up we can be forgiven, whereas angels get booted to hell with no second chances. (The Lord is kind of a shitty employer.)
Also according to my local evangelist, Satan’s fall happened in two parts. First, he was the hottest piece of ass in Heaven, which caused him to pull a Narcissus and demand worship from other angels. But the Lord can’t share worship, it’s part of the class restrictions. So he grew mightily pissed and cast Satan down to Earth, whose inhabitants Satan turned into demons. Second, the Lord made Adam and gave him Earth to rule over, since the current Earthlings weren’t anyone he cared for. Squatting Satan wasn’t happy with his new landlord, so he tempted him and got cast down to Hell for that.
Many stories can be spun from the materials, as would be expected of godshatter. “A little lower than the angels” is actually from Psalms 8:5 (and quoted in Hebrews 2:7). Interestingly, the next verse says “Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands”, which together implies that the angels are not the work of God’s hands. This is not the only place where a hint of polytheism breaks through.
It’s ambiguous whether the translation should be “lower than the angels” or “lower than yourself”. (That’s what you get for not classifying angels as deities.) Oddly, Hebrews 2:7 is always translated using angels, though the text is the same in Hebrew versions, probably intentionally backtranslating from Greek. (ותחסרהו מעט מאלוהים, וכבוד והדר תעטרהו)
Even weirder, translations of Hebrews 2:7 in other languages tend to say “You have lowered him under the angels for a short time”, not created so permanently. But translations of Psalm 8:5 are all about “created lower than”, with the same disagreement about the relevant celestial being.
I can’t find any Greek translations of Psalm 8:5 so I can’t tell if they match Hebrews 2:7, and anyway it’d be Modern Greek.
I’ve noticed that reading old texts with alien mindsets is an instant idea generator for fantasy settings. (Seriously, I don’t get I’ve never heard anyone suggest the notion of “fantasy writers should read old texts” before. They’re just filled with peculiar ideas about the world that one can import directly to a fantasy setting.) Would you happen to have any recommendations on texts that would be particularly suitable for this?
That is a great question. The first thing to come to mind actually isn’t all that old, but from the Early Modern Period. To a large extent, the Renaissance was much more mystical than the Late Middle Ages (seriously, compare Galileo’s Platonism to Swineshead’s Scholasticism). The paradigm I’m referring to is usually referred to as the “natural magic tradition” and is exemplified by thinkers like Paracelsus (The Hermetic and Alchemical Writings of Paracelsus) and Heinrich Cornelius Agrippa von Nettesheim (Three Books of Occult Philosophy).
The SEP entry for Agrippa sounds downright HPMOR-esque:
De occulta philosophia in its early form showed Agrippa’s determination to transform magic into a useful science that would draw together all branches of magical learning, set those materials into a single philosophical framework, purge magic of the evil and demonic practices that had caused it to be regarded as a wicked science, and turn it into knowledge that would be beneficial to humanity. His goal was a total regeneration of magic, transforming it into a science that would enable the magus, or learned practitioner of magic, to perform marvelous works that would contribute to the welfare of humanity (Kavey 2010)....
Such learning is esoteric. Because of the power it confers, it would be potentially dangerous to religion, society, and individuals if it fell into the hands of the crude and ignorant masses. It must be communicated only to individuals whom the magician (the magus) knew to be worthy, both intellectually and morally, people who would use this power for the benefit of humanity (OP 3:2).
In undergrad, one of my friends and I came up with the idea of a medieval-philosophy based magic system for a fantasy setting—essentially Platonic realism as magic. Wizards spent all their time collecting metaphysical materials, contemplating forms and such. Directly inspired by reading Plato, Plotinus and, I think, Augustine.
I tell them, “Ah, but if you take one cloud and another cloud, and add them together, you still get one cloud, so 1 + 1 = 1.”
Neither claim is “silly bullshit”, but the conclusion of the second sentence is clearly broken. I have no reason to doubt Feser is a domain expert in theology. It’s what he does with his expertise that bothers me.
Anyway, if it takes such a round about sequence of obscure studies to even begin to make sense of this stuff, it is no wonder that modern atheists (or virtually all Christians, for that matter) have trouble getting it right.
That’s exactly the point. Christianity is already a sociological fact that bares almost no resemblance to whatever kind of Christianity it is that would “get it right.”
I tell them, “Ah, but if you take one cloud and another cloud, and add them together, you still get one cloud, so 1 + 1 = 1.”
Neither claim is “silly bullshit”
I’m comfortable calling that claim silly bullshit. In fact, I can’t think of a better word for it. It is exactly the kind of thing the phrase “silly bullshit” is there to describe.
Yeah, I think I see what you mean. Feser seems to want to take apart arguments put forward by the atheist in the street in a no-holds-barred style, but then berates atheists that do the same to the Christian in the street, rather than only grappling with the arguments advanced by the masters of theology.
Much of my undergraduate degree in philosophy was reading medieval texts (and later) from Christian philosophers, and I agree—most atheists I’ve encountered just don’t understand the philosophical underpinnings. I think Dawkins circa The God Delusion is one of these, but I haven’t read the book and my impressions are likely colored by my teachers and friends in undergrad who were largely sophisticated Christians.
That being said, most Christians don’t seem to understand these underpinnings either.
Did a higher percentage of educated medieval or classical Christians understand this paradigm? Or was it reserved, as now, to extremely well educated, smart, specialized theologians?
Did a higher percentage of educated medieval or classical Christians understand this paradigm? Or was it reserved, as now, to extremely well educated, smart, specialized theologians?
I’m not in a very good position to answer this question with an acceptable degree of accuracy. The periods I am referring to had very low literacy rates, so I don’t have much access to the thoughts of uneducated, non-smart, non-specialized medieval persons.
I can’t speak for his blog writings (since I have only read a few articles), but I have read his book on Nozick and am almost done with his book on Aquinas.
I have no reason to doubt your claim, but it seems plausible that he is right in this case (if, in fact, he does so accuse atheists in this way). Why? Because I had 4 years of Bible class in high school and studied philosophy of religion at university and yet still only understood the straw man versions (most likely unintentional straw men, mind you) of the arguments made by “some medieval philosopher”, or had any idea about the philosophical “underpinnings of Christianity”.
It wasn’t until I got interested enough in the history of science to actually bother to read primary texts (in astronomy, alchemy, and “physics”) that I was able to get my mind situated in such a way that I could look around at the world from within these alien Medieval paradigms and see that some of these claims weren’t just silly bullshit.
Anyway, if it takes such a roundabout sequence of obscure studies to even begin to make sense of this stuff, it is no wonder that modern atheists (or virtually all Christians, for that matter) have trouble getting it right.
I’ve noticed that reading old texts with alien mindsets is an instant idea generator for fantasy settings. (Seriously, I don’t get I’ve never heard anyone suggest the notion of “fantasy writers should read old texts” before. They’re just filled with peculiar ideas about the world that one can import directly to a fantasy setting.) Would you happen to have any recommendations on texts that would be particularly suitable for this?
Christian theology offers rich pickings. Did you know it has a closed timelike loop? Satan was cast out from heaven because he refused God’s command to bow to Man, which the angels must do (despite man being created a little lower than the angels) because God incarnated as a man, which he did to redeem Man from his fall, who fell because Satan tempted him, because Satan sought revenge upon God, because God cast him out from heaven. There is also the concept of a “type of Christ”, where “type” has an old sense of “prototype”. King David, Abraham, and Adam are examples. In science-fictional terms, the eruption of God into Time in the person of Jesus was such a momentous event that it sent back echoes of itself into the past, calling into being the history that called the Incarnation into being.
Parallelisms between techno-singularitarian ideas and Christian notions of salvation have often been made, usually with the implication that singularitarianism is just disguised religion and the technological arguments are mere rationalisation (“rapture of the nerds”). But suppose it’s the other way round? Religion results from mankind’s dim groping towards the techno-singularitarian truth, assisted by the occasional superpowerful alien or entity from outside the Matrix, inciting the major prophets and Messiah figures of history. The enlightenment that most religious traditions have sought consists of access to the real truth of things, but limited human minds are unable to comprehend it. Religion is, to use Vernor Vinge’s term, “godshatter”.
And the Jews are clearly an alien genetic/memetic breeding project.
My local evangelist insists that angels are lower than humans. We’re children, not servants. So they’re supposed to obey us (they work for the family), and we only have to obey them insofar as they convey messages from Dad. If we mess up we can be forgiven, whereas angels get booted to hell with no second chances. (The Lord is kind of a shitty employer.)
Also according to my local evangelist, Satan’s fall happened in two parts. First, he was the hottest piece of ass in Heaven, which caused him to pull a Narcissus and demand worship from other angels. But the Lord can’t share worship, it’s part of the class restrictions. So he grew mightily pissed and cast Satan down to Earth, whose inhabitants Satan turned into demons. Second, the Lord made Adam and gave him Earth to rule over, since the current Earthlings weren’t anyone he cared for. Squatting Satan wasn’t happy with his new landlord, so he tempted him and got cast down to Hell for that.
Many stories can be spun from the materials, as would be expected of godshatter. “A little lower than the angels” is actually from Psalms 8:5 (and quoted in Hebrews 2:7). Interestingly, the next verse says “Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands”, which together implies that the angels are not the work of God’s hands. This is not the only place where a hint of polytheism breaks through.
It’s ambiguous whether the translation should be “lower than the angels” or “lower than yourself”. (That’s what you get for not classifying angels as deities.) Oddly, Hebrews 2:7 is always translated using angels, though the text is the same in Hebrew versions, probably intentionally backtranslating from Greek. (ותחסרהו מעט מאלוהים, וכבוד והדר תעטרהו)
Even weirder, translations of Hebrews 2:7 in other languages tend to say “You have lowered him under the angels for a short time”, not created so permanently. But translations of Psalm 8:5 are all about “created lower than”, with the same disagreement about the relevant celestial being.
I can’t find any Greek translations of Psalm 8:5 so I can’t tell if they match Hebrews 2:7, and anyway it’d be Modern Greek.
That is a great question. The first thing to come to mind actually isn’t all that old, but from the Early Modern Period. To a large extent, the Renaissance was much more mystical than the Late Middle Ages (seriously, compare Galileo’s Platonism to Swineshead’s Scholasticism). The paradigm I’m referring to is usually referred to as the “natural magic tradition” and is exemplified by thinkers like Paracelsus (The Hermetic and Alchemical Writings of Paracelsus) and Heinrich Cornelius Agrippa von Nettesheim (Three Books of Occult Philosophy).
The SEP entry for Agrippa sounds downright HPMOR-esque:
Thanks!
In undergrad, one of my friends and I came up with the idea of a medieval-philosophy based magic system for a fantasy setting—essentially Platonic realism as magic. Wizards spent all their time collecting metaphysical materials, contemplating forms and such. Directly inspired by reading Plato, Plotinus and, I think, Augustine.
Ars Magica does something somewhat similar.
Someone tells me, “1 + 1 = 2.”
I tell them, “Ah, but if you take one cloud and another cloud, and add them together, you still get one cloud, so 1 + 1 = 1.”
Neither claim is “silly bullshit”, but the conclusion of the second sentence is clearly broken. I have no reason to doubt Feser is a domain expert in theology. It’s what he does with his expertise that bothers me.
That’s exactly the point. Christianity is already a sociological fact that bares almost no resemblance to whatever kind of Christianity it is that would “get it right.”
I’m comfortable calling that claim silly bullshit. In fact, I can’t think of a better word for it. It is exactly the kind of thing the phrase “silly bullshit” is there to describe.
Yeah, I think I see what you mean. Feser seems to want to take apart arguments put forward by the atheist in the street in a no-holds-barred style, but then berates atheists that do the same to the Christian in the street, rather than only grappling with the arguments advanced by the masters of theology.
Much of my undergraduate degree in philosophy was reading medieval texts (and later) from Christian philosophers, and I agree—most atheists I’ve encountered just don’t understand the philosophical underpinnings. I think Dawkins circa The God Delusion is one of these, but I haven’t read the book and my impressions are likely colored by my teachers and friends in undergrad who were largely sophisticated Christians.
That being said, most Christians don’t seem to understand these underpinnings either.
Did a higher percentage of educated medieval or classical Christians understand this paradigm? Or was it reserved, as now, to extremely well educated, smart, specialized theologians?
I’m not in a very good position to answer this question with an acceptable degree of accuracy. The periods I am referring to had very low literacy rates, so I don’t have much access to the thoughts of uneducated, non-smart, non-specialized medieval persons.