No, though I admit it has felt like that for me at some points in my life. Even if I did, there are a bunch of reasons why that I would not trust that intuition
I like certain things and dislike certain things, and in a certain sense I would be mistaken if I were doing things that reliably caused me pain. That certain sense is that if I were better informed I would not take that action. If, however, I liked pain, I would still take that action, and so I would not be mistaken. I could go through the same process to explain why an sadist is not mistaken.
I do not know what else to say except that this is just an appeal to intuition, and that specific intuitions are worthless unless they are proven to reliably point towards the truth.
Liking pain seems impossible, as it is an aversive feeling. However, for some people, some types of pain or self-harm cause a distraction from underlying emotional pain, which is felt as good or relieving, or it may give them some thrill, but in these cases it seems that it is always pain + some associated good feeling, or some relief of an underlying bad feeling, and it is for the good feeling or relief that they want pain, rather than pain for itself.
Conscious perceptions in themselves seem to be what is most certain in terms of truth. The things they represent, such as the physical world, may be illusions, but one cannot doubt feeling the illusions themselves.
Let’s play the Monday-Tuesday game. On Monday I like pain. On Tuesday I like some associated good feeling that pain provides. What’s the difference between Monday and Tuesday?
The idea that one can like pain in itself is not substantiated by evidence. Masochists or self-harmers seek some pleasure or relief they get from pain or humiliation, not pain for itself. They won’t stick their hands in a pot with boiling water.
To follow that line of reasoning, please provide evidence that there exists anyone that enjoys pain in itself. I find that unbelievable, as pain is aversive by nature.
This is not how you play the Monday-Tuesday game! Also, a request to play the Monday-Tuesday game isn’t an argument, it’s a request for clarification. Specifically, I’m asking you to clarify what the difference between two statements is. Maybe we should try a simpler example:
On Monday I like ice cream. On Tuesday I like some associated good feeling that ice cream provides. What’s the difference between Monday and Tuesday?
Who cares about that silly game. Accepting to play it or not is my choice.
You can only validly like ice cream by way of feelings, because all that you have direct access to in this universe is consciousness. The difference between Monday and Tuesday in your example is only in the nature of the feelings involved. In the pain example, it is liked by virtue of the association with other good feelings, not pain in itself. If a person somehow loses the associated good feelings, certain painful stimuli cease to be desirable.
If a person somehow loses the associated good feelings, ice cream also ceases to be desirable. I still don’t see the difference between Monday and Tuesday.
I think I might have some idea what you mean about masochists not liking pain. Let me tell a different story, and you can tell me whether you agree...
Masochists like pain, but only in very specific environments, such as roleplaying fantasies. Within that environment, masochists like pain because of how it affects the overall experience of the fantasy. Outside that environment, masochists are just as pain-averse as the rest of the world.
Yes, in the same way that explaining your ideas well or poorly is your choice, but I don’t see what this has to do with explaining the difference between liking X and liking associated good feelings that X provides.
No, though I admit it has felt like that for me at some points in my life. Even if I did, there are a bunch of reasons why that I would not trust that intuition
I like certain things and dislike certain things, and in a certain sense I would be mistaken if I were doing things that reliably caused me pain. That certain sense is that if I were better informed I would not take that action. If, however, I liked pain, I would still take that action, and so I would not be mistaken. I could go through the same process to explain why an sadist is not mistaken.
I do not know what else to say except that this is just an appeal to intuition, and that specific intuitions are worthless unless they are proven to reliably point towards the truth.
Liking pain seems impossible, as it is an aversive feeling. However, for some people, some types of pain or self-harm cause a distraction from underlying emotional pain, which is felt as good or relieving, or it may give them some thrill, but in these cases it seems that it is always pain + some associated good feeling, or some relief of an underlying bad feeling, and it is for the good feeling or relief that they want pain, rather than pain for itself.
Conscious perceptions in themselves seem to be what is most certain in terms of truth. The things they represent, such as the physical world, may be illusions, but one cannot doubt feeling the illusions themselves.
Let’s play the Monday-Tuesday game. On Monday I like pain. On Tuesday I like some associated good feeling that pain provides. What’s the difference between Monday and Tuesday?
The idea that one can like pain in itself is not substantiated by evidence. Masochists or self-harmers seek some pleasure or relief they get from pain or humiliation, not pain for itself. They won’t stick their hands in a pot with boiling water.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sadomasochism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-harm
To follow that line of reasoning, please provide evidence that there exists anyone that enjoys pain in itself. I find that unbelievable, as pain is aversive by nature.
This is not how you play the Monday-Tuesday game! Also, a request to play the Monday-Tuesday game isn’t an argument, it’s a request for clarification. Specifically, I’m asking you to clarify what the difference between two statements is. Maybe we should try a simpler example:
On Monday I like ice cream. On Tuesday I like some associated good feeling that ice cream provides. What’s the difference between Monday and Tuesday?
Who cares about that silly game. Accepting to play it or not is my choice.
You can only validly like ice cream by way of feelings, because all that you have direct access to in this universe is consciousness. The difference between Monday and Tuesday in your example is only in the nature of the feelings involved. In the pain example, it is liked by virtue of the association with other good feelings, not pain in itself. If a person somehow loses the associated good feelings, certain painful stimuli cease to be desirable.
If a person somehow loses the associated good feelings, ice cream also ceases to be desirable. I still don’t see the difference between Monday and Tuesday.
I think I might have some idea what you mean about masochists not liking pain. Let me tell a different story, and you can tell me whether you agree...
Masochists like pain, but only in very specific environments, such as roleplaying fantasies. Within that environment, masochists like pain because of how it affects the overall experience of the fantasy. Outside that environment, masochists are just as pain-averse as the rest of the world.
Does that story jibe with your understanding?
Yes, that is correct. I’m glad a Less Wronger finally understood.
Yes, in the same way that explaining your ideas well or poorly is your choice, but I don’t see what this has to do with explaining the difference between liking X and liking associated good feelings that X provides.