Would a neurologist who has thus far been immersed daily with the fact that all brains can fail in all sorts of interesting ways be hit just as bad with these delusions if given brain damage as someone who might have operated all their life under a sort of naive realism that makes no difference between reality and their brain’s picture of it? What about a philosopher with no neurological experience but with a well-seated obsession with the map not being the territory?
Had to make an account to answer this one, since I can give unique insight
I’m an atypical case in that I had the Capgras Delusion (along with Reduplicative Paramnesia) in childhood, rather than as an adult. The delusions started sometime around 6-9 years of age. I hid it from others, partly because I halfway knew it was ridiculous, partly because I didn’t want to let out that I was on to them...and it caused me quite a bit of anxiety, because I felt like I lost my loved ones and slipped into parallel universes every few days. I would try to keep my eyes on my loved ones, because as soon as I looked away and looked back the feeling that something was different would return.
Sometime around 12-14, I realized how implausible it was for any kind of impostor to conduct such large scale conspiracy, and how implausible it was that I was slipping into parallel universe. I told my parents what I was experiencing and admitted it was irrational. I forced myself to ignore the feeling every time it came (though it still bothered me). Eventually around 17 the feeling stopped bothering me altogether, although little twinges still occured from time to time.
I’m currently in what I would consider to be above average mental health, and many years later learned I the name of the delusions that had plagued me as a child. Prior to identifying them as monothematic delusions, I had thought that imposters and parallel universes might simply be a gifted child’s equivalent of monsters under the bed. My parents thought it was from reading/watching too much fiction. I never suspected a neurological disorder until years later.
I’m not sure if I was able to see past the delusion because I’m an atypical case (no known brain injury), because I was a child, because my brain healed via biological mechanism, or because I’m intelligent...but I can tell you that my memory of the event involves me figuring out that the delusion was improbable and consciously working to bring it to an end.
So unless my memories are false (it was a long time ago) or I am engaging in mis-attribution, the answer to your question is that yes, in some cases it would be possible for someone to use rational thinking to overcome this kind of disorder.
This is yet again a different scenario, but very interesting, thanks! It does occur to me now that there might be adult trauma patients who can see through the delusion, and never get diagnosed with it, since they don’t start raving about impostor family members but just go, whoa, brain seems messed, better go see the stroke doctor.
I ocassionally entertained ideas like that in the back of my mind. Truman Show, Teachers are aliens, Parents somehow know everything/ everything about me and are just fucking with me in the way that Zeus would to test character, except over a much longer Santa Clause/ Jesus esque period of time, the mothman is watching me, there are invisible monsters/ demons all around me and I need to be very sneaky not to be seen.
I’m not sure I believed them, exactly. Maybe I did. Maybe I didn’t. I still do the same stuff sometimes, with equally wierd things. Whenever I start half way believing in god or track of thought in my bain giving arbitrary commands is the voice of God, I just start doing experiments against the rest of reality til the shadow of belief goes away, since they never line up with testable reality. I’ve never had actual hallucinations, though, as far as I know.
Hehe...to be honest I half-believed those too...not that everyone was a robot, but that everyone was a philosophical zombie. It wasn’t until high school that I figured out that for all intents and purposes, I’m a philosophical zombie too.
But in my opinion, those really ARE normal childhood beliefs that are not the result of any neuropathology… beliefs that many philosophers still entertain in the form of solipsism.
I have read the book (I recently received it from an elderly friend who hoarded books—I picked through about $20,000 worth of books and chose several hundred dollars worth), and it started off interesting, to hear of her personal experience of the stroke and its accompanying mind-states. She seems to have fought her way through various delusions, but not with any more success than other examples cited here. Yes, she is/was a neuroscientist. She also proudly proclaims that she tells her bowels “Good job! I am so thankful that you do exactly what you are meant to do!” every time she takes a dump, and concluded the book with some painfully New Age-y exhortations which gave me the same urge to roll around frothing at the mouth that I often experienced with clearly delusional Christian preachers in church.
The Amazon page for the book doesn’t describe her getting any of the sort of very specific delusions described in the OP though, just general debilitation and paradoxical feelings of euphoria.
Would a neurologist who has thus far been immersed daily with the fact that all brains can fail in all sorts of interesting ways be hit just as bad with these delusions if given brain damage as someone who might have operated all their life under a sort of naive realism that makes no difference between reality and their brain’s picture of it? What about a philosopher with no neurological experience but with a well-seated obsession with the map not being the territory?
Had to make an account to answer this one, since I can give unique insight
I’m an atypical case in that I had the Capgras Delusion (along with Reduplicative Paramnesia) in childhood, rather than as an adult. The delusions started sometime around 6-9 years of age. I hid it from others, partly because I halfway knew it was ridiculous, partly because I didn’t want to let out that I was on to them...and it caused me quite a bit of anxiety, because I felt like I lost my loved ones and slipped into parallel universes every few days. I would try to keep my eyes on my loved ones, because as soon as I looked away and looked back the feeling that something was different would return.
Sometime around 12-14, I realized how implausible it was for any kind of impostor to conduct such large scale conspiracy, and how implausible it was that I was slipping into parallel universe. I told my parents what I was experiencing and admitted it was irrational. I forced myself to ignore the feeling every time it came (though it still bothered me). Eventually around 17 the feeling stopped bothering me altogether, although little twinges still occured from time to time.
I’m currently in what I would consider to be above average mental health, and many years later learned I the name of the delusions that had plagued me as a child. Prior to identifying them as monothematic delusions, I had thought that imposters and parallel universes might simply be a gifted child’s equivalent of monsters under the bed. My parents thought it was from reading/watching too much fiction. I never suspected a neurological disorder until years later.
I’m not sure if I was able to see past the delusion because I’m an atypical case (no known brain injury), because I was a child, because my brain healed via biological mechanism, or because I’m intelligent...but I can tell you that my memory of the event involves me figuring out that the delusion was improbable and consciously working to bring it to an end.
So unless my memories are false (it was a long time ago) or I am engaging in mis-attribution, the answer to your question is that yes, in some cases it would be possible for someone to use rational thinking to overcome this kind of disorder.
This is yet again a different scenario, but very interesting, thanks! It does occur to me now that there might be adult trauma patients who can see through the delusion, and never get diagnosed with it, since they don’t start raving about impostor family members but just go, whoa, brain seems messed, better go see the stroke doctor.
This raises the obvious question: Could training in bayesian reasoning effectively increase the insight of delusional patients?
Some strangely common childhood beliefs:
Everyone except you is a robot
Your life is like the Truman Show
I ocassionally entertained ideas like that in the back of my mind. Truman Show, Teachers are aliens, Parents somehow know everything/ everything about me and are just fucking with me in the way that Zeus would to test character, except over a much longer Santa Clause/ Jesus esque period of time, the mothman is watching me, there are invisible monsters/ demons all around me and I need to be very sneaky not to be seen.
I’m not sure I believed them, exactly. Maybe I did. Maybe I didn’t. I still do the same stuff sometimes, with equally wierd things. Whenever I start half way believing in god or track of thought in my bain giving arbitrary commands is the voice of God, I just start doing experiments against the rest of reality til the shadow of belief goes away, since they never line up with testable reality. I’ve never had actual hallucinations, though, as far as I know.
For me it was that I suspected I was the robot. Never told anyone though.
Hehe...to be honest I half-believed those too...not that everyone was a robot, but that everyone was a philosophical zombie. It wasn’t until high school that I figured out that for all intents and purposes, I’m a philosophical zombie too.
But in my opinion, those really ARE normal childhood beliefs that are not the result of any neuropathology… beliefs that many philosophers still entertain in the form of solipsism.
Do those turn into these when they grow up?
Jill Bolte has provided a case study. She is a neurologist who had a stroke. Her experience is recounted in her TED talk and her book.
I have read the book (I recently received it from an elderly friend who hoarded books—I picked through about $20,000 worth of books and chose several hundred dollars worth), and it started off interesting, to hear of her personal experience of the stroke and its accompanying mind-states. She seems to have fought her way through various delusions, but not with any more success than other examples cited here. Yes, she is/was a neuroscientist. She also proudly proclaims that she tells her bowels “Good job! I am so thankful that you do exactly what you are meant to do!” every time she takes a dump, and concluded the book with some painfully New Age-y exhortations which gave me the same urge to roll around frothing at the mouth that I often experienced with clearly delusional Christian preachers in church.
The Amazon page for the book doesn’t describe her getting any of the sort of very specific delusions described in the OP though, just general debilitation and paradoxical feelings of euphoria.
It’s the closest we’re likely to get, though, given the rarity of both neurologists and anosognosias.
Well, neurologists are rare, but I think we do know how to create targeted brain lesions that can cause pretty specific symptoms.
Any volunteers?
I might. Anybody got $20,000,000?
Well, if we’re going there I’ll do it for $10M.