The “Hey!” is slightly tongue-in-cheek, but I did feel that either I must not have gotten the point across, or that you were yourself being tongue-in-cheek in so summarizing.
right. i see stupidity as a more pressing issue than craziness. i see the latter as more soluble than the former. but yeah, you mentioned craziness not stupidity, though my takeaway was more about the problem of stupidity in heuristics & biases. see my blog response (nominal that it is).
AngryParsley, no. i won’t. i don’t plan on being a regular contributer here, so apologize for whatever faux pas i made re: capitalization (didn’t read the style guide), but you won’t see me around very much anyhow :-) and you’re free to avoid me at the next OB meetup if i ever manage to make those again too!
I don’t mean to offend or sound confrontational. Assuming a large audience, the extra effort required of a writer to punctuate and capitalize is much less than the total extra effort spent by people reading unpunctuated or uncapitalized text.
In addition to extra effort it takes to read uncapitalized text, it has another effect on me:
It makes the writer sound unintelligent and low in Conscientiousness. Perhaps this is because people with less of those things are less likely to use correct capitalization, leading to an association in my mind.
Since I know Razib is both intelligent and conscientious from being a long-time reader of GNXP, every time I read his stuff I have to fight my implicit association of his capitalization with that of 14 year-old LiveJournal users. I’d rather not.
Intelligent writers might often use colloquialisms that are more typically used by less intelligent people, yet they do so deliberately to achieve a particular effect, such as making their writing sound more conversational or accessible. In contrast, ignoring capitalization makes writing sound both less intelligent and less accessible. Is the shift key really so bad that avoiding it is worth hurting one’s perceived intelligence and writing accessibility?
It makes the writer sound unintelligent and low in Conscientiousness. Perhaps this is because people with less of those things are less likely to use correct capitalization, leading to an association in my mind.
I’ll admit, my first time through, my thought was: “maybe your atheist friend finds you hard to follow because you are stupider and less educated than you think you are, your reading speed due to haste & low comprehension, and your explanations & arguments are badly put or deeply fallacious”.
I’ve been blogging for 7 years. In that time there was a significant period when I was working 60-70 hours a week, as well as managing to read, have a relationship, and, running two weblogs (since I didn’t run GNXP as a diary, and pre-scheduled many of my posts, I assume you weren’t aware of this). So I got used to making the particular trade-offs you see. In the comments I focused on quantity and not so much on quality. As for the posts themselves, I tried to focus on substance and not care too much about style (e.g., I did a quick once over but then published). Since I had very little marginal time that was just what I had to do.
So, from your perspective I can see why it would be eminently reasonable to wonder why I wouldn’t capitalize. But you aren’t, or weren’t, subject to the same trade-offs as I was on a day to day level. So why did I, and do I, blog? Well, I’ve met some incredibly intelligent people, and made some awesome contacts. Many people at the Singularity Institute (e.g., Michael Vassar, who began reading my weblogs well before he was Mr. Singularity Institute President) for example, but also many people in science and outside of science. I also managed to get a fellowship out of it. I understand why implicitly I might have made myself seem a bit less intelligent than I was because of the stylistic ticks which I’ve developed over the years, but this is a case where obviously I feel I’ve presented myself well enough to the people who “count.” The primary payment I’ve received for blogging all these years are the people in the comments who have sent me links, critiqued ideas, etc.
So if the people who “count” to me did make suggestions stylistically (as they have on occasion), I would take notice. But as it is, none of them have complained about my capitalization, though they have about other things.
In any case, there was a time where I would want to present myself in a way where LW readers would take me as seriously as possible. For a variety of reasons, that really isn’t that time, and I try and avoid most weblogs and conversations on most weblogs (I’m splitting myself between 3 right now). I’ve reached pretty my “Dunbar’s Number” for intelligent people I’ve met through my weblog (I also tended to discount comments from.
As for the disagreement with Eliezer, it’s gotten me thinking. Some of the differences are long-standing. I enjoy hanging out with Eliezer’s gang, but I think I’m a lot more pessimistic than they are about human nature in general. Perhaps a BHTV episode in the future? I’m doing one for the 17th of October already with John Hawks, so way in the future probably.
Hm… well, the lack of capitalization didn’t much bother me because I know you. But I do think sentences are easier to read when capitalized, and that it is generally economical for one author to save a thousand readers the effort. Maybe don’t capitalize on your own blog, but capitalize on blog comments on blogs where there’s a high standard of commenting?
Though I actually am pretty sympathetic to your basic plea here, because the whole reason I started blogging was in an effort to write faster, and critical to that effort is learning to hold your writing to lower standards. As the saying goes, there’s no such thing as writer’s block—you can always write a sentence—there is only holding yourself to too high a standard. If lack of capitalization is your key trigger for lowering your standards enough to write, I won’t complain. Back when I started blogging, just the fact that it was a blog post was enough; but it wore off over time and since then it’s been a constant struggle for me to lower my standards. (Do not try this with anything other than writing!)
Though I actually am pretty sympathetic to your basic plea here, because the whole reason I started blogging was in an effort to write faster, and critical to that effort is learning to hold your writing to lower standards. . . . (Do not try this with anything other than writing!)
No? Really? I’ve gotten the idea that you should lower your standards whenever you find yourself simply not doing something. I am pretty bad at drawing, since I’ve had practically no experience. Recently, therefore, I’ve figured that I should go ahead and draw something, even though I know that I’ll do a bad job of it. I’m sure that Robin Hanson would love pointing out that the fact that a performance is too poor to show to other people doesn’t mean that it’s too poor to practice privately.
The time you just spent defending yourself with boasts and trying to imply that those who request grammar are beneath you has more than offset the time you will save by neglecting the shift key across your entire lifespan.
Right. This kind of awesome individual is exactly why I try and avoid commenting on weblogs outside my own :-) The goal too often becomes to seem super-smart and be all bad-ass with quips. Most of this would be eliminated if people used their real names, but that isn’t going to happen.
Capitalized text is no easier to read than uncapitalized text. Capitalization is only a tool for filtering out idiots, but the longer and more poignant the message, the less necessary it becomes.
Capitalized text is no easier to read than uncapitalized text.
Maybe for you, but not for me. Capital letters serve as focus points when scanning through text, and appear mainly in the places that people are most likely to be looking for when scanning: proper nouns (to help when backtracking through text to resolve a pronoun) and sentence boundaries (to help find a start point when switching from scanning to reading). Text without capitalization is like text in bad handwriting or a poorly chosen font; missing capitalization only slows readers down a little bit, but that’s more than enough to make many people skip reading it entirely.
Maybe for you, but not for me. Capital Letters serve as focus Points when scanning through Text, and appear mainly in the Places that People are most likely to be looking for when scanning: proper Nouns (to help when backtracking through Text to resolve a Pronoun) and sentence Boundaries (to help find a start Point when switching from Scanning to Reading). Text without Capitalization is like Text in bad Handwriting or a poorly chosen Font; missing Capitalization only slows Readers down a little Bit, but that’s more than enough to make many People skip reading it entirely.
I agree with this Comment wholeheartedly. Note that title-cased Text (as in newspaper Headlines) is generally even less readable than uncapitalized Text.
Absurd. Do you think punctuation is useless and no easier to read? Capitalization is semantics as expressed in syntax; it tells us where thoughts end and begin, important because text doesn’t have the vocal rhythms or frequency shifts which we otherwise rely on.
Exactly—craziness is far more soluble than stupidity at our present state of technology. What does it accomplish to complain that someone is stupid? Are you going to teach them to be smart?
As for which is worse, it depends on how crazy you are, doesn’t it? “Intelligent people sometimes do things more stupid than stupid people are capable of,” said Phil Goetz.
Even with intelligence enhancement tech, by the time someone had been brought up to modern-equiv IQ 180 it would probably be more of a favor to them to teach them a little basic rationality than to bring them up further to IQ 190.
The “Hey!” is slightly tongue-in-cheek, but I did feel that either I must not have gotten the point across, or that you were yourself being tongue-in-cheek in so summarizing.
right. i see stupidity as a more pressing issue than craziness. i see the latter as more soluble than the former. but yeah, you mentioned craziness not stupidity, though my takeaway was more about the problem of stupidity in heuristics & biases. see my blog response (nominal that it is).
AngryParsley, no. i won’t. i don’t plan on being a regular contributer here, so apologize for whatever faux pas i made re: capitalization (didn’t read the style guide), but you won’t see me around very much anyhow :-) and you’re free to avoid me at the next OB meetup if i ever manage to make those again too!
I don’t mean to offend or sound confrontational. Assuming a large audience, the extra effort required of a writer to punctuate and capitalize is much less than the total extra effort spent by people reading unpunctuated or uncapitalized text.
In addition to extra effort it takes to read uncapitalized text, it has another effect on me:
It makes the writer sound unintelligent and low in Conscientiousness. Perhaps this is because people with less of those things are less likely to use correct capitalization, leading to an association in my mind.
Since I know Razib is both intelligent and conscientious from being a long-time reader of GNXP, every time I read his stuff I have to fight my implicit association of his capitalization with that of 14 year-old LiveJournal users. I’d rather not.
Intelligent writers might often use colloquialisms that are more typically used by less intelligent people, yet they do so deliberately to achieve a particular effect, such as making their writing sound more conversational or accessible. In contrast, ignoring capitalization makes writing sound both less intelligent and less accessible. Is the shift key really so bad that avoiding it is worth hurting one’s perceived intelligence and writing accessibility?
I’ll admit, my first time through, my thought was: “maybe your atheist friend finds you hard to follow because you are stupider and less educated than you think you are, your reading speed due to haste & low comprehension, and your explanations & arguments are badly put or deeply fallacious”.
Hugh,
I’ve been blogging for 7 years. In that time there was a significant period when I was working 60-70 hours a week, as well as managing to read, have a relationship, and, running two weblogs (since I didn’t run GNXP as a diary, and pre-scheduled many of my posts, I assume you weren’t aware of this). So I got used to making the particular trade-offs you see. In the comments I focused on quantity and not so much on quality. As for the posts themselves, I tried to focus on substance and not care too much about style (e.g., I did a quick once over but then published). Since I had very little marginal time that was just what I had to do.
So, from your perspective I can see why it would be eminently reasonable to wonder why I wouldn’t capitalize. But you aren’t, or weren’t, subject to the same trade-offs as I was on a day to day level. So why did I, and do I, blog? Well, I’ve met some incredibly intelligent people, and made some awesome contacts. Many people at the Singularity Institute (e.g., Michael Vassar, who began reading my weblogs well before he was Mr. Singularity Institute President) for example, but also many people in science and outside of science. I also managed to get a fellowship out of it. I understand why implicitly I might have made myself seem a bit less intelligent than I was because of the stylistic ticks which I’ve developed over the years, but this is a case where obviously I feel I’ve presented myself well enough to the people who “count.” The primary payment I’ve received for blogging all these years are the people in the comments who have sent me links, critiqued ideas, etc.
So if the people who “count” to me did make suggestions stylistically (as they have on occasion), I would take notice. But as it is, none of them have complained about my capitalization, though they have about other things.
In any case, there was a time where I would want to present myself in a way where LW readers would take me as seriously as possible. For a variety of reasons, that really isn’t that time, and I try and avoid most weblogs and conversations on most weblogs (I’m splitting myself between 3 right now). I’ve reached pretty my “Dunbar’s Number” for intelligent people I’ve met through my weblog (I also tended to discount comments from.
As for the disagreement with Eliezer, it’s gotten me thinking. Some of the differences are long-standing. I enjoy hanging out with Eliezer’s gang, but I think I’m a lot more pessimistic than they are about human nature in general. Perhaps a BHTV episode in the future? I’m doing one for the 17th of October already with John Hawks, so way in the future probably.
Hm… well, the lack of capitalization didn’t much bother me because I know you. But I do think sentences are easier to read when capitalized, and that it is generally economical for one author to save a thousand readers the effort. Maybe don’t capitalize on your own blog, but capitalize on blog comments on blogs where there’s a high standard of commenting?
Though I actually am pretty sympathetic to your basic plea here, because the whole reason I started blogging was in an effort to write faster, and critical to that effort is learning to hold your writing to lower standards. As the saying goes, there’s no such thing as writer’s block—you can always write a sentence—there is only holding yourself to too high a standard. If lack of capitalization is your key trigger for lowering your standards enough to write, I won’t complain. Back when I started blogging, just the fact that it was a blog post was enough; but it wore off over time and since then it’s been a constant struggle for me to lower my standards. (Do not try this with anything other than writing!)
I’d be honored to do a BHTV.
No? Really? I’ve gotten the idea that you should lower your standards whenever you find yourself simply not doing something. I am pretty bad at drawing, since I’ve had practically no experience. Recently, therefore, I’ve figured that I should go ahead and draw something, even though I know that I’ll do a bad job of it. I’m sure that Robin Hanson would love pointing out that the fact that a performance is too poor to show to other people doesn’t mean that it’s too poor to practice privately.
re: BHTV, let’s get in touch in a few months. I think the disagreement is strong enough to satisfy the overlords in this case.
The time you just spent defending yourself with boasts and trying to imply that those who request grammar are beneath you has more than offset the time you will save by neglecting the shift key across your entire lifespan.
That’s not actually true.
Right. This kind of awesome individual is exactly why I try and avoid commenting on weblogs outside my own :-) The goal too often becomes to seem super-smart and be all bad-ass with quips. Most of this would be eliminated if people used their real names, but that isn’t going to happen.
Capitalized text is no easier to read than uncapitalized text. Capitalization is only a tool for filtering out idiots, but the longer and more poignant the message, the less necessary it becomes.
Maybe for you, but not for me. Capital letters serve as focus points when scanning through text, and appear mainly in the places that people are most likely to be looking for when scanning: proper nouns (to help when backtracking through text to resolve a pronoun) and sentence boundaries (to help find a start point when switching from scanning to reading). Text without capitalization is like text in bad handwriting or a poorly chosen font; missing capitalization only slows readers down a little bit, but that’s more than enough to make many people skip reading it entirely.
I agree with this Comment wholeheartedly. Note that title-cased Text (as in newspaper Headlines) is generally even less readable than uncapitalized Text.
’(NOT TO MENTION LISP STYLE TEXT)
Absurd. Do you think punctuation is useless and no easier to read? Capitalization is semantics as expressed in syntax; it tells us where thoughts end and begin, important because text doesn’t have the vocal rhythms or frequency shifts which we otherwise rely on.
Exactly—craziness is far more soluble than stupidity at our present state of technology. What does it accomplish to complain that someone is stupid? Are you going to teach them to be smart?
As for which is worse, it depends on how crazy you are, doesn’t it? “Intelligent people sometimes do things more stupid than stupid people are capable of,” said Phil Goetz.
Even with intelligence enhancement tech, by the time someone had been brought up to modern-equiv IQ 180 it would probably be more of a favor to them to teach them a little basic rationality than to bring them up further to IQ 190.
And still the latter remains unsolved, which is kinda crazy, if you think of it. =)