[I feel like the following question might be triggering, not sure. It references your childhood. The triggering I expect is maybe something like, the question conflates / juxtaposes two things that are similar, but importantly very different, such that if the distinction weren’t kept solidly in mind, there’d be strong psychic forces pointing in opposite directions? Idk.]
Anyway: I notice that you say:
But a key aspect of frame control is reframing harm as good
And then I realized that that’s what my father had done to me – he’d given me the ability to experience life with such ongoing lightness, and what he’d done had been worth it. All I’d been through had been worth it. If I could go back in time, I wouldn’t change my life at all. This pain was mine, now, chosen by me, held by me deliberately, and nothing about it was wrong.
Prima facie these seem in tension. What are the differences between harm reframed as good, vs. harm… “reclaimed as good”? A reaction I had reading your “reclaiming” was like, there’s something off, it mostly seems desirable, but also there’s some loss of integrity / preciseness or something, or like, the pain wasn’t fully interpreted / honored, or the pain probably had some further telos, or the pain was subtly ignored, and that ignoring has something deep in common with someone being frame controlled into trying to ignore harm or think it’s good.
ETA: maybe the thing supposedly being elided, is the concept of justice.
Yeah, great point. I think my frame control post is overly simplified and not 100% representative of my full worldview, because I don’t have the energy or skill required to put “actually everything is just narrative tho” in there and still maintain my point.
As far as I have the capacity to understand about myself, the ‘reclaiming’ post was true. It happened seven years ago now, and I still haven’t had the issues come back I did prior to that reclaiming moment, and I’ve had no further detection of unhonored or ignored pain.
But uhhh I’m not sure if I have the clarity right now to stab further at my intuitions around this. I’ve got a blog post brewing specifically in response to your sort of question and I suspect it’ll take a while before it’s ready. But I simultaneously want to burn frame control with fire, and also believe it’s not inherently bad. Or something.
I agree that’s a key question, though it’s plausible to me that the reframing is related to a lot of mental things, and so has lots of effects that I don’t understand. E.g. if the reframing involves in some sense giving up on justice (<- just a speculation) then it could be locally behaviorally right (justice may be too costly in this case) while also accidentally involving more broadly giving up on justice including where justice would be good.
[I feel like the following question might be triggering, not sure. It references your childhood. The triggering I expect is maybe something like, the question conflates / juxtaposes two things that are similar, but importantly very different, such that if the distinction weren’t kept solidly in mind, there’d be strong psychic forces pointing in opposite directions? Idk.]
Anyway: I notice that you say:
And also, from https://knowingless.com/2018/09/21/trauma-narrative/ :
Prima facie these seem in tension. What are the differences between harm reframed as good, vs. harm… “reclaimed as good”? A reaction I had reading your “reclaiming” was like, there’s something off, it mostly seems desirable, but also there’s some loss of integrity / preciseness or something, or like, the pain wasn’t fully interpreted / honored, or the pain probably had some further telos, or the pain was subtly ignored, and that ignoring has something deep in common with someone being frame controlled into trying to ignore harm or think it’s good.
ETA: maybe the thing supposedly being elided, is the concept of justice.
Yeah, great point. I think my frame control post is overly simplified and not 100% representative of my full worldview, because I don’t have the energy or skill required to put “actually everything is just narrative tho” in there and still maintain my point.
As far as I have the capacity to understand about myself, the ‘reclaiming’ post was true. It happened seven years ago now, and I still haven’t had the issues come back I did prior to that reclaiming moment, and I’ve had no further detection of unhonored or ignored pain.
But uhhh I’m not sure if I have the clarity right now to stab further at my intuitions around this. I’ve got a blog post brewing specifically in response to your sort of question and I suspect it’ll take a while before it’s ready. But I simultaneously want to burn frame control with fire, and also believe it’s not inherently bad. Or something.
Interesting, thanks for the data!
I’ll be curious to see your further writing.
Well, setting a fire might require you to get too close; nuking it from orbit is maybe prudenter.
The important thing seems to be whether that reframing leads to allowing the harm to happen again to someone else.
I agree that’s a key question, though it’s plausible to me that the reframing is related to a lot of mental things, and so has lots of effects that I don’t understand. E.g. if the reframing involves in some sense giving up on justice (<- just a speculation) then it could be locally behaviorally right (justice may be too costly in this case) while also accidentally involving more broadly giving up on justice including where justice would be good.