Are there any other common concepts to which this distinction can be applied? Vengefulness and making threats, maybe?
“A mind needn’t be vengeful to reap the benefits of vengefulness / making threats”?
Meaning, in more words: humans have drives and instincts which cause them to act vengefully or threateningly under certain circumstances. Some or all humans might even care about punishment or revenge for its own sake, i.e. terminally value that other agents get their just desserts, including punishment. (Though that might be a value that would fade away or greatly diminish under sufficient reflection.)
But it might be the case that a mind could find it instrumentally useful to make threats or behave vengefully towards agents which respond to such behavior, without the mind itself internally exhibiting any of the drives or instincts that cause humans to be vengeful.
Maybe kindness is also like this: there might be benefits to behaving kindly, in some situations. But a mind behaving kindly (pico-psuedokindly?) need not value kindness for its own sake, nor have any basic drive or instinct to kindness.
Maybe kindness is also like this: there might be benefits to behaving kindly, in some situations. But a mind behaving kindly (pico-psuedokindly?) need not value kindness for its own sake, nor have any basic drive or instinct to kindness.
I feel like this is common enough—”are they helping me out here just because they’re really nice, or because they want to get in my good graces or have me owe them a favor?”—that authors often have fictional characters wonder if it’s one or the other. And real people certainly express similar concerns about, say, whether someone donates to charity for signaling purposes or for “altruism”.
Also reminds me:
“You don’t see nice ways to do the things you want to do,” Harry said. His ears heard a note of desperation in his own voice. “Even when a nice strategy would be more effective you don’t see it because you have a self-image of not being nice.”
“That is a fair observation,” said Professor Quirrell. “Indeed, now that you have pointed it out, I have just now thought of some nice things I can do this very day, to further my agenda.”
Harry just looked at him.
Professor Quirrell was smiling. “Your lesson is a good one, Mr. Potter. From now on, until I learn the trick of it, I shall keep diligent watch for cunning strategies that involve doing kindnesses for other people. Go and practice acts of goodwill, perhaps, until my mind goes there easily.”
Cold chills ran down Harry’s spine.
Professor Quirrell had said this without the slightest visible hesitation.
I feel like this is common enough—”are they helping me out here just because they’re really nice, or because they want to get in my good graces or have me owe them a favor?”—that authors often have fictional characters wonder if it’s one or the other. And real people certainly express similar concerns about, say, whether someone donates to charity for signaling purposes or for “altruism”.
That’s a good example, though I was originally thinking of an agent which behaves actually kindly, not because it expects any favor or reciprocation, nor because it is trying to manipulate the agent it is being kind to (or any other agent(s)) as part of some larger goal.
An agent might be capable of behaving in such a manner, as well as understanding the true and precise meaning of kindness, as humans understand it, but without having any of the innate drives or motivations which cause humans to behave kindly.
Such an agent might actually behave kindly despite lacking such drives though, for various reasons: perhaps an inclination to the kindness behavior pattern has somehow been hardcoded into the agent’s mind, or, if we’re in the world of HPMOR, the agent has taken some kind of Unbreakable Vow to behave kindly.
Are there any other common concepts to which this distinction can be applied? Vengefulness and making threats, maybe?
“A mind needn’t be vengeful to reap the benefits of vengefulness / making threats”?
Meaning, in more words: humans have drives and instincts which cause them to act vengefully or threateningly under certain circumstances. Some or all humans might even care about punishment or revenge for its own sake, i.e. terminally value that other agents get their just desserts, including punishment. (Though that might be a value that would fade away or greatly diminish under sufficient reflection.)
But it might be the case that a mind could find it instrumentally useful to make threats or behave vengefully towards agents which respond to such behavior, without the mind itself internally exhibiting any of the drives or instincts that cause humans to be vengeful.
Maybe kindness is also like this: there might be benefits to behaving kindly, in some situations. But a mind behaving kindly (pico-psuedokindly?) need not value kindness for its own sake, nor have any basic drive or instinct to kindness.
I feel like this is common enough—”are they helping me out here just because they’re really nice, or because they want to get in my good graces or have me owe them a favor?”—that authors often have fictional characters wonder if it’s one or the other. And real people certainly express similar concerns about, say, whether someone donates to charity for signaling purposes or for “altruism”.
Also reminds me:
That’s a good example, though I was originally thinking of an agent which behaves actually kindly, not because it expects any favor or reciprocation, nor because it is trying to manipulate the agent it is being kind to (or any other agent(s)) as part of some larger goal.
An agent might be capable of behaving in such a manner, as well as understanding the true and precise meaning of kindness, as humans understand it, but without having any of the innate drives or motivations which cause humans to behave kindly.
Such an agent might actually behave kindly despite lacking such drives though, for various reasons: perhaps an inclination to the kindness behavior pattern has somehow been hardcoded into the agent’s mind, or, if we’re in the world of HPMOR, the agent has taken some kind of Unbreakable Vow to behave kindly.