I think they worry too much about the submissiveness of the relationship. I think it’s a much more common desire than people acknowledge. Not just in terms of sexuality, but in terms of a desire for a father figure or a great leader to tell people what to do. So it’s a common desire not just for particular moments, but in how people live their whole lives
I don’t agree with the point about relationship being invalid because you don’t have to work for it. I agree that this would be bad in a romantic relationship because it’d hamper your personal development, but I really don’t think that getting a cat instead of a dog will have a large effect. In fact, the safety provided by the unconditionality of a pets love may provide someone with the safety to take more risks in their relationships in the real world
I don’t think dogs need meaning in quite the same way as humans. They acknowledge that they’ve personified them to an extent and try to show their argument holds anyway. However, I don’t think they’ve entirely avoided the personification trap. I don’t deny that dogs may have instincts such as hunting or herding that are unfulfilled in modern life. This are instincts and we should be concerned with them being unfulfilled, but I don’t think we should equate them with a life purpose.
In any case, dogs as pets probably increase the empathy for animals significantly, so we should encourage more pets, not less.
I’m not sure I agree that one can make the case that increasing pet ownership really does increase empathy for animals in general. I think (and the brief glance at the original article mentions this, at least indirectly if it didn’t dig into it somewhere I didn’t see) too many pet owners seem have pets for personal emotional needs. Often the pet becomes some possession existing to serve as an emotional crutch, becoming a means to some internal emotional end.
I’d like to see some empirical studies on the claim—for instance, how many pet buyers just take for granted the pet is not from some pet farm. When word come out about such places, how many actually change their buying habits? Then, just what does that do for other settings where one might consider the ethics of animal treatment (ranching for instance, or wildlife preserves...). Or maybe even something like the percentage of members of PETA who are pet owners or donors to PETA? (I might think the portions would be different if pet ownership does promote more empathy)
I think it is a mistake to think merely because someone is receiving some emotional value from a pet with that person actually caring about the pet (this holds for people as well in all sorts of relationships) beyond the pet’s ability to delivery that emotional satisfaction.
I am not a psychologist but I suspect one can describe most abusive relationships as having filling an emotional need for the abuser, often with little to no recognition of the what the abusee’s true/real needs are.
But it’s also a mistake to think that using an animal in that way won’t lead to more empathy for animals in general—the question is instead to ask how people will best maintain consistent self—images?
In practice for the people who own pets, do you find them more empathic of animals after owning them? I think that
It does seem people use pets for their own needs, and often fool themselves that they’re doing it for the pet/ they’re a compassionate pet owner
People seem to be more compassionate towards animals when having owned pets, in order to maintain this image of compassionate pet owner.
So in my experience the evidence is that both what you and Chris are saying is true.
Anecdotally speaking, being forced to take care of a puppy made me significantly more empathic towards animals in general. Whereas I subconsciously saw pet owners as being ‘hijacked’ (even taking into account a rather animal-obsessed childhood), it was only after fully bonding with my puppy that I was able to empathise with suffering animals on a gut level (again, I used to be able to, then I was desensitised for years, then today I’m back to full-on animal empathy mode).
All this happened over the course of 4-5 days. It was actually quite scary to see my values change so abruptly, to the extent that visiting r/petloss literally makes me want to vomit due to how heavy it makes my heart.
I definitely agree with point 1. We have this Enlightenment-era ideal that relationships should be egalitarian, but in fact, that is the exception, not the rule. And I could probably make an argument that no relationship is truly 100% egalitarian.
The author makes some good points, but:
I think they worry too much about the submissiveness of the relationship. I think it’s a much more common desire than people acknowledge. Not just in terms of sexuality, but in terms of a desire for a father figure or a great leader to tell people what to do. So it’s a common desire not just for particular moments, but in how people live their whole lives
I don’t agree with the point about relationship being invalid because you don’t have to work for it. I agree that this would be bad in a romantic relationship because it’d hamper your personal development, but I really don’t think that getting a cat instead of a dog will have a large effect. In fact, the safety provided by the unconditionality of a pets love may provide someone with the safety to take more risks in their relationships in the real world
I don’t think dogs need meaning in quite the same way as humans. They acknowledge that they’ve personified them to an extent and try to show their argument holds anyway. However, I don’t think they’ve entirely avoided the personification trap. I don’t deny that dogs may have instincts such as hunting or herding that are unfulfilled in modern life. This are instincts and we should be concerned with them being unfulfilled, but I don’t think we should equate them with a life purpose.
In any case, dogs as pets probably increase the empathy for animals significantly, so we should encourage more pets, not less.
I’m not sure I agree that one can make the case that increasing pet ownership really does increase empathy for animals in general. I think (and the brief glance at the original article mentions this, at least indirectly if it didn’t dig into it somewhere I didn’t see) too many pet owners seem have pets for personal emotional needs. Often the pet becomes some possession existing to serve as an emotional crutch, becoming a means to some internal emotional end.
I’d like to see some empirical studies on the claim—for instance, how many pet buyers just take for granted the pet is not from some pet farm. When word come out about such places, how many actually change their buying habits? Then, just what does that do for other settings where one might consider the ethics of animal treatment (ranching for instance, or wildlife preserves...). Or maybe even something like the percentage of members of PETA who are pet owners or donors to PETA? (I might think the portions would be different if pet ownership does promote more empathy)
I don’t see how using a pet as a personal emotional need relates to decreasing empathy for animals. It’s likely to me that would increase empathy.
I think it is a mistake to think merely because someone is receiving some emotional value from a pet with that person actually caring about the pet (this holds for people as well in all sorts of relationships) beyond the pet’s ability to delivery that emotional satisfaction.
I am not a psychologist but I suspect one can describe most abusive relationships as having filling an emotional need for the abuser, often with little to no recognition of the what the abusee’s true/real needs are.
But it’s also a mistake to think that using an animal in that way won’t lead to more empathy for animals in general—the question is instead to ask how people will best maintain consistent self—images? In practice for the people who own pets, do you find them more empathic of animals after owning them? I think that
It does seem people use pets for their own needs, and often fool themselves that they’re doing it for the pet/ they’re a compassionate pet owner
People seem to be more compassionate towards animals when having owned pets, in order to maintain this image of compassionate pet owner.
So in my experience the evidence is that both what you and Chris are saying is true.
Agreed. I was offering a counter to the proposition that pet ownership increases the empathy towards animals.
But I’m saying that it does, and that your point is not a counter?
Anecdotally speaking, being forced to take care of a puppy made me significantly more empathic towards animals in general. Whereas I subconsciously saw pet owners as being ‘hijacked’ (even taking into account a rather animal-obsessed childhood), it was only after fully bonding with my puppy that I was able to empathise with suffering animals on a gut level (again, I used to be able to, then I was desensitised for years, then today I’m back to full-on animal empathy mode).
All this happened over the course of 4-5 days. It was actually quite scary to see my values change so abruptly, to the extent that visiting r/petloss literally makes me want to vomit due to how heavy it makes my heart.
I definitely agree with point 1. We have this Enlightenment-era ideal that relationships should be egalitarian, but in fact, that is the exception, not the rule. And I could probably make an argument that no relationship is truly 100% egalitarian.