Can you think of some specific examples of an important kind of physical play where the consent of the other kid can’t be obtained explicitly (if that’s what you have in mind)?
I can’t think of any examples where consent cannot be obtained explicitly (barring things like, the person is currently in a state where they’re not capable of being verbal or processing verbal communication, or whatever).
The point is that there is a cost associated with obtaining explicit verbal consent. I think that it’s entirely plausible that that is, nevertheless, exactly the way to go—that this is the right distribution of costs, to protect people who are otherwise vulnerable.
But I don’t think we can actually do the math unless we actually weigh the costs and take them into account. I think a certain kind of person thinks that explicit verbal communication is costless, and tends to typical-mind about this, and thereby not validate its costly nature for People Unlike Themselves (of whom there are a lot).
Roughhousing-in-general is an example of the sort of place where, for a lot of humans and probably a majority (and probably a supermajority of males), obtaining explicit consent à la “wanna have a pillow fight?” is notably less nourishing than picking up a pillow and swinging away.
I agree (even though I would always err on the side of asking). I see three options:
Starting right away with a pillow fight. This has a potential of turning out to be highly uncomfortable/emotionally hurtful to a kid who doesn’t want to be suddenly hit with a pillow.
Initiating an epsilon big stimulus, and seeing if there is a positive or a negative feedback (and then continue either in a positive or a negative feedback loop). This could emotionally hurt a kid who doesn’t want even epsilon big probes without asking (even though not in case of a pillow fight, probably).
Asking first.
Giving the hypercomputer to Visser Three after all, since humans apparently can’t even have a pillow fight without emotionally hurting each other in some way
(Also, I’m not a consequentialist, so I wouldn’t resolve this by considering the utility lost by asking and comparing it to the utility gained by being cautious.)
I would never have considered that verbal consent has a cost. It’s just something totally outside my world model up to now. I guess I’m one of those people who typical-minds. The fact is, though, I tend to actively dislike and not want to be around the kind of people who would have trouble with that—or indeed, the kind of people who would just pick up a pillow and hit me with it without asking first! This probably relates to the fear / disgust / hatred of masculinity I had (was indoctrinated with by the media?) as a child. Funny how everything is connected...
Can you think of some specific examples of an important kind of physical play where the consent of the other kid can’t be obtained explicitly (if that’s what you have in mind)?
I can’t think of any examples where consent cannot be obtained explicitly (barring things like, the person is currently in a state where they’re not capable of being verbal or processing verbal communication, or whatever).
The point is that there is a cost associated with obtaining explicit verbal consent. I think that it’s entirely plausible that that is, nevertheless, exactly the way to go—that this is the right distribution of costs, to protect people who are otherwise vulnerable.
But I don’t think we can actually do the math unless we actually weigh the costs and take them into account. I think a certain kind of person thinks that explicit verbal communication is costless, and tends to typical-mind about this, and thereby not validate its costly nature for People Unlike Themselves (of whom there are a lot).
Roughhousing-in-general is an example of the sort of place where, for a lot of humans and probably a majority (and probably a supermajority of males), obtaining explicit consent à la “wanna have a pillow fight?” is notably less nourishing than picking up a pillow and swinging away.
I agree (even though I would always err on the side of asking). I see three options:
Starting right away with a pillow fight. This has a potential of turning out to be highly uncomfortable/emotionally hurtful to a kid who doesn’t want to be suddenly hit with a pillow.
Initiating an epsilon big stimulus, and seeing if there is a positive or a negative feedback (and then continue either in a positive or a negative feedback loop). This could emotionally hurt a kid who doesn’t want even epsilon big probes without asking (even though not in case of a pillow fight, probably).
Asking first.
Giving the hypercomputer to Visser Three after all, since humans apparently can’t even have a pillow fight without emotionally hurting each other in some way(Also, I’m not a consequentialist, so I wouldn’t resolve this by considering the utility lost by asking and comparing it to the utility gained by being cautious.)
I would never have considered that verbal consent has a cost. It’s just something totally outside my world model up to now. I guess I’m one of those people who typical-minds. The fact is, though, I tend to actively dislike and not want to be around the kind of people who would have trouble with that—or indeed, the kind of people who would just pick up a pillow and hit me with it without asking first! This probably relates to the fear / disgust / hatred of masculinity I had (was indoctrinated with by the media?) as a child. Funny how everything is connected...