Here’s a more general comment re: the relevance of my aside—not about this issue in particular, but this general class of things.
I have, quite a few times in the past, had the experience of bringing up something like this, and having the responses of other participants or potential-participants in the discussion be split along lines as follows:
Some people: That was unnecessary! And irrelevant. No one else feels this way, why bring your grudge into this unrelated matter?
Other people: Thank you for saying that. I, too, feel this way, and agree that this is highly relevant, but didn’t want to say anything.
Those in the first category are usually oblivious to the existence and the prevalence of those in the second.
So yes, I think that it is not only absolutely permissible, but indeed mandatory, to insert just such asides into just such discussions. If there’s no uptake—well, then I simply drop the matter. Saying it once, or at least once in a long while, is sufficient; I have no problem changing the subject. But pervasive silence in such cases is how echo chambers form.
I can very well believe that remarks like this get exactly those sorts of comments, but I don’t think the existence of the Other People is good evidence that the remarks are a good idea. All it need show is that there are people who are cross about X (in this case X=CFAR) and feel that their views are underrepresented, which is not sufficient to make anti-X jabs helpful contributions to any given discussion.
If your opinion is that CFAR is a fraud or a scam or just inept and want to reassure others who hold similar views, then make a post actually about that explaining why you think that. It’ll be far more effective in showing those people that they have allies, it’ll provide a venue for others who agree to explain why (and for those who disagree to explain why, which should also be important if we’re trying to arrive at the truth), and it’ll have some chance of persuading others (which at-most-marginally-relevant jabs will not).
If going to the effort of writing a whole post about a concern is a prerequisite to ever mentioning the concern at all, then I think that’s an entirely unreasonable barrier, and certain to create a chilling effect on discussions of that concern. I oppose such a policy unreservedly.
All it need show is that there are people who are cross about X (in this case X=CFAR) and feel that their views are underrepresented, which is not sufficient to make anti-X jabs helpful contributions to any given discussion.
I thought that “and the concern in question is relevant to the current discussion” was implied. But consider it now stated outright! Append that, mentally, to what I said in the grandparent. (Certainly, as I made clear in the parallel thread, I think that the CFAR issue is relevant to this discussion.)
Perhaps I wasn’t clear: I don’t think you are, or should be, forbidden to mention your opinions of / attitude to CFAR if you aren’t willing to make a whole post explaining them. That would be crazy.
What I do think (which seems to me much less crazy) is this: 1. If, as you say three comments upthread from here, you feel that you have an obligation to say bad things about CFAR in public so that LW2 doesn’t become a pro-CFAR echo chamber, then what you’ve done here is not a very effective way of doing it, and writing something more substantial would be much more effective. And: 2. Dropping boo-to-CFAR asides into discussions of something else is likely to do more harm than good (even conditional on CFAR being bad in whatever ways you consider it bad; in fact, probably more so if it is) because its most likely effect is to make fans of CFAR defensive, people who dislike CFAR gloaty, and people who frankly don’t care much about CFAR annoyed at having what seem like political rivalries injected into otherwise-interesting discussions.
Of course, what’s ended up happening is that there’s been a ton of discussion and you may end up expending as much effort as if you’d written a whole post about why you are unimpressed by CFAR, but without the actual benefits of having done so. For the avoidance of doubt, that wasn’t my intention, and I doubt it was anyone else’s either, but it’s not exactly a surprising outcome either; gratuitously inflammatory asides tend to have such consequences...
Very enthusiastic +1 to this. I also don’t want to have a policy (that, empirically, I currently have, I guess?) of making people who say things like what you said, end up having to defend their views for hours in replies.
Here’s a more general comment re: the relevance of my aside—not about this issue in particular, but this general class of things.
I have, quite a few times in the past, had the experience of bringing up something like this, and having the responses of other participants or potential-participants in the discussion be split along lines as follows:
Some people: That was unnecessary! And irrelevant. No one else feels this way, why bring your grudge into this unrelated matter?
Other people: Thank you for saying that. I, too, feel this way, and agree that this is highly relevant, but didn’t want to say anything.
Those in the first category are usually oblivious to the existence and the prevalence of those in the second.
So yes, I think that it is not only absolutely permissible, but indeed mandatory, to insert just such asides into just such discussions. If there’s no uptake—well, then I simply drop the matter. Saying it once, or at least once in a long while, is sufficient; I have no problem changing the subject. But pervasive silence in such cases is how echo chambers form.
I can very well believe that remarks like this get exactly those sorts of comments, but I don’t think the existence of the Other People is good evidence that the remarks are a good idea. All it need show is that there are people who are cross about X (in this case X=CFAR) and feel that their views are underrepresented, which is not sufficient to make anti-X jabs helpful contributions to any given discussion.
If your opinion is that CFAR is a fraud or a scam or just inept and want to reassure others who hold similar views, then make a post actually about that explaining why you think that. It’ll be far more effective in showing those people that they have allies, it’ll provide a venue for others who agree to explain why (and for those who disagree to explain why, which should also be important if we’re trying to arrive at the truth), and it’ll have some chance of persuading others (which at-most-marginally-relevant jabs will not).
If going to the effort of writing a whole post about a concern is a prerequisite to ever mentioning the concern at all, then I think that’s an entirely unreasonable barrier, and certain to create a chilling effect on discussions of that concern. I oppose such a policy unreservedly.
I thought that “and the concern in question is relevant to the current discussion” was implied. But consider it now stated outright! Append that, mentally, to what I said in the grandparent. (Certainly, as I made clear in the parallel thread, I think that the CFAR issue is relevant to this discussion.)
Perhaps I wasn’t clear: I don’t think you are, or should be, forbidden to mention your opinions of / attitude to CFAR if you aren’t willing to make a whole post explaining them. That would be crazy.
What I do think (which seems to me much less crazy) is this: 1. If, as you say three comments upthread from here, you feel that you have an obligation to say bad things about CFAR in public so that LW2 doesn’t become a pro-CFAR echo chamber, then what you’ve done here is not a very effective way of doing it, and writing something more substantial would be much more effective. And: 2. Dropping boo-to-CFAR asides into discussions of something else is likely to do more harm than good (even conditional on CFAR being bad in whatever ways you consider it bad; in fact, probably more so if it is) because its most likely effect is to make fans of CFAR defensive, people who dislike CFAR gloaty, and people who frankly don’t care much about CFAR annoyed at having what seem like political rivalries injected into otherwise-interesting discussions.
Of course, what’s ended up happening is that there’s been a ton of discussion and you may end up expending as much effort as if you’d written a whole post about why you are unimpressed by CFAR, but without the actual benefits of having done so. For the avoidance of doubt, that wasn’t my intention, and I doubt it was anyone else’s either, but it’s not exactly a surprising outcome either; gratuitously inflammatory asides tend to have such consequences...
Very enthusiastic +1 to this. I also don’t want to have a policy (that, empirically, I currently have, I guess?) of making people who say things like what you said, end up having to defend their views for hours in replies.