I was going to write my thoughts here, but I am tickled to find that I would simply be copy and pasting the main post. Agreements:
Clapping kills the mood, and is by far the #1 problem I’d name. People being uncomfortable not clapping is not significantly different from people being uncomfortable participating in a ritual; it’s what solstice is there for, so let’s actually do it.
Quiet children being welcome during the ceremony seems reasonable, but [specific child who hasn’t consented to be named] is an unusually loud kid. I noticed that, having other children there, it wasn’t children in general, it was this small person specifically. I like the proposal of a kids room for loud small beings, I don’t want to just kick small folks out.
Having a “solve this!” challenge in the middle made me suddenly go from trying to be solemn to trying to do a thing, and worried that I might fail. Which combined badly with
Being in a large crowd in a highly acoustically reflective space made it very hard to have conversations, on top of the feeling of rushed socializing: everyone is trying to find the best person to talk to, and so I feel like I’m taking my friend’s time up if I try to talk to them when they could be meeting people; and this doubly so if I try to talk to someone new, because they don’t even know me. This makes solstice completely fail as a community gathering for me. I was only able to interact with people I already knew. If we were going to make a community gathering, why not optimize for reducing friction in getting to know people better?
I don’t have confidence that it was just [Munchkin] who was the problem, among kids. At past events that has been true, but there were more kids of an age with them this time, and so I specifically avoided rushing to that judgment. (Not that it kept me from getting yelled at on Facebook.)
I do think that the overall argument about kids at events has, up to this point, been a disguised referendum on [Munchkin] specifically, basically every time. Mentioning this did and honestly still does feel unspeakably rude because there’s basically no way to have that discussion without it being a direct social attack on something intensely personal for them and their parental figures.
[EDIT NOTE: This previously contained a particular kid’s name. Benquo pointed out that they have not and probably can’t yet consent to that, so I have replaced the real name with [Munchkin]. I will privately share the kid’s name on request, if it isn’t clear from context.]
I think this is actually a hard-to-avoid adverse consequence of the thing being handled like a (shoestring) theatrical production rather than a community event.
If the community had some sort of coordination mechanism for making Solstice happen that included some sort of venue for sharing info, then there would be a natural private venue to bring up how a thing affected you, find out to what extent there were contravening interests that made it difficult to accommodate yours, and search for a solution. But if the one, independent, overworked event producer wants to do things in a way that doesn’t meet your needs, you don’t really have recourse aside from escalating to a venue like this one. This seems like a corollary to Raemon’s post about melting gold.
Mentioning this did and honestly still does feel unspeakably rude because there’s basically no way to have that discussion without it being a direct social attack on something intensely personal for her and her parental figures.
Right, that’s why I wanted to not just say “kids bothered me”; no point in hiding it in subtext when it’s just as awkward. I edited out name, though.
People being uncomfortable not clapping is not significantly different from people being uncomfortable participating in a ritual; it’s what solstice is there for, so let’s actually do it.
I think there’s actual disagreement on whether Solstice is or should be a ritual in the relevant sense, and disagreement about clapping is secretly disagreement about this.
I suspect you actually mean something subtly different than lahwran does by “ritual”. But I feel like I’m going out on a limb a little there, this is at least some evidence against my claim.
I would phrase it as “it seems likely that lahwran wants a subtly different kind of ritual than I do”, and the subtle-distinction of my sentence vs yours seems important to me.
I could describe the specifics, but the main thing is just… ritualspace is big, and rather than trying to define what True Ritual means very specifically, it’s better to just… acknowledge that it is big.
Ritual is more of a cluster than something clearly defined, but I’d say the central things of properly done ritual are:
some kind of sacrifice (minimum viable sacrifice is time, which is a bit of a cop-out but not unreasonable. Solstice strives for a sacrifice of the form “experience things that are sad/unsettling”)
symbolic and emotional power that transforms the participants (this requires their awareness and assent)
I’m not sure if everyone in this thread would agree with that definition, but I’m guessing it’s pretty close. I very much want Solstice to have those things.
Clapping can push against that… but I don’t think there’s anything intrinsic to that, or that the effect is so strong as to destroy all ritualconcepts.
Clapping does ruin the solemn darkness, and certain kinds of sacredness. But my ideal Solstice has at least some songs that end with a bunch of excited energy (as well as appreciation) built up in me and clapping seems like an okay way to express that in those moments.
Clapping, for cultural reasons, does tend to send the message that you are an audience rather than participants. I think this is particularly the case when you’re in the “seating + stage” setup we usually have. But even this varies:
Imagine a Solstice that’s more like a Viking Banquet, where part of the thing that’s happening is we’re honoring the people who have done great things this year, and the clapping isn’t a “we are an audience thing” so much as a “we are a community honoring our people” thing. (Relatedly, in a hypothetical solstice where the audience was always singing along, where they were seated in a circle, where there were no visible lead performers, I can imagine clapping happening that feels like “we just did a cool thing together and we’re excited” rather than “good job people on stage who are Not Us”)
Basically I think the clapping is a factor, just not an overwhelming one if the rest of Solstice is done right.
I was going to write my thoughts here, but I am tickled to find that I would simply be copy and pasting the main post. Agreements:
Clapping kills the mood, and is by far the #1 problem I’d name. People being uncomfortable not clapping is not significantly different from people being uncomfortable participating in a ritual; it’s what solstice is there for, so let’s actually do it.
Quiet children being welcome during the ceremony seems reasonable, but [specific child who hasn’t consented to be named] is an unusually loud kid. I noticed that, having other children there, it wasn’t children in general, it was this small person specifically. I like the proposal of a kids room for loud small beings, I don’t want to just kick small folks out.
Having a “solve this!” challenge in the middle made me suddenly go from trying to be solemn to trying to do a thing, and worried that I might fail. Which combined badly with
Being in a large crowd in a highly acoustically reflective space made it very hard to have conversations, on top of the feeling of rushed socializing: everyone is trying to find the best person to talk to, and so I feel like I’m taking my friend’s time up if I try to talk to them when they could be meeting people; and this doubly so if I try to talk to someone new, because they don’t even know me. This makes solstice completely fail as a community gathering for me. I was only able to interact with people I already knew. If we were going to make a community gathering, why not optimize for reducing friction in getting to know people better?
I don’t have confidence that it was just [Munchkin] who was the problem, among kids. At past events that has been true, but there were more kids of an age with them this time, and so I specifically avoided rushing to that judgment. (Not that it kept me from getting yelled at on Facebook.)
I do think that the overall argument about kids at events has, up to this point, been a disguised referendum on [Munchkin] specifically, basically every time. Mentioning this did and honestly still does feel unspeakably rude because there’s basically no way to have that discussion without it being a direct social attack on something intensely personal for them and their parental figures.
[EDIT NOTE: This previously contained a particular kid’s name. Benquo pointed out that they have not and probably can’t yet consent to that, so I have replaced the real name with [Munchkin]. I will privately share the kid’s name on request, if it isn’t clear from context.]
I think this is actually a hard-to-avoid adverse consequence of the thing being handled like a (shoestring) theatrical production rather than a community event.
If the community had some sort of coordination mechanism for making Solstice happen that included some sort of venue for sharing info, then there would be a natural private venue to bring up how a thing affected you, find out to what extent there were contravening interests that made it difficult to accommodate yours, and search for a solution. But if the one, independent, overworked event producer wants to do things in a way that doesn’t meet your needs, you don’t really have recourse aside from escalating to a venue like this one. This seems like a corollary to Raemon’s post about melting gold.
Right, that’s why I wanted to not just say “kids bothered me”; no point in hiding it in subtext when it’s just as awkward. I edited out name, though.
I think there’s actual disagreement on whether Solstice is or should be a ritual in the relevant sense, and disagreement about clapping is secretly disagreement about this.
I mean, I’m pretty pro Solstice-is-a-ritual and I definitely disagree with the OP on clapping to at least some degree.
I suspect you actually mean something subtly different than lahwran does by “ritual”. But I feel like I’m going out on a limb a little there, this is at least some evidence against my claim.
I would phrase it as “it seems likely that lahwran wants a subtly different kind of ritual than I do”, and the subtle-distinction of my sentence vs yours seems important to me.
How would you characterize the different kinds of ritual?
I could describe the specifics, but the main thing is just… ritualspace is big, and rather than trying to define what True Ritual means very specifically, it’s better to just… acknowledge that it is big.
Ritual is more of a cluster than something clearly defined, but I’d say the central things of properly done ritual are:
some kind of sacrifice (minimum viable sacrifice is time, which is a bit of a cop-out but not unreasonable. Solstice strives for a sacrifice of the form “experience things that are sad/unsettling”)
symbolic and emotional power that transforms the participants (this requires their awareness and assent)
I’m not sure if everyone in this thread would agree with that definition, but I’m guessing it’s pretty close. I very much want Solstice to have those things.
Clapping can push against that… but I don’t think there’s anything intrinsic to that, or that the effect is so strong as to destroy all ritualconcepts.
Clapping does ruin the solemn darkness, and certain kinds of sacredness. But my ideal Solstice has at least some songs that end with a bunch of excited energy (as well as appreciation) built up in me and clapping seems like an okay way to express that in those moments.
Clapping, for cultural reasons, does tend to send the message that you are an audience rather than participants. I think this is particularly the case when you’re in the “seating + stage” setup we usually have. But even this varies:
Imagine a Solstice that’s more like a Viking Banquet, where part of the thing that’s happening is we’re honoring the people who have done great things this year, and the clapping isn’t a “we are an audience thing” so much as a “we are a community honoring our people” thing. (Relatedly, in a hypothetical solstice where the audience was always singing along, where they were seated in a circle, where there were no visible lead performers, I can imagine clapping happening that feels like “we just did a cool thing together and we’re excited” rather than “good job people on stage who are Not Us”)
Basically I think the clapping is a factor, just not an overwhelming one if the rest of Solstice is done right.