If I recall, STDs and unintended pregnancy were virtually nonexistent, and people were psychologically strong enough that it wasn’t traumatic. I suppose if someone attempted rape and the victim defended themselves such that it turned into a fight, then it would be treated the same way as if the rapist had started a fight.
I suppose if someone attempted rape and the victim defended themselves such that it turned into a fight, then it would be treated the same way as if the rapist had started a fight.
Okay, that does make it quite alright from a more or less modern legal standpoint; “rape” is considered in the same light as a really offensive and provoking physical insult, so that the right of self-defense goes to the victim if they retaliate in a limited manner.
However, it makes NO sense socially; what middle ground is there between (reluctantly) letting someone use you as an object with no will of its own and fighting the rapist off?
Is the victim essentially stripped of the right to determine their consent or lack thereof during the attempt, with their only options in a socially complicated situation being to shut up and never appeal to the law afterwards, or escalate the conflict, which might be harmless for the “rapist” and a huge status hit to the victim.
Really, what about—in a VERY individualist and status-chasing society—the unseen stigma on refusing and reporting someone higher-status than yourself? Isn’t that essentially society siding with the strong against the weak and disapproving if the weak stand up for themselves?
Think of it instead as a prank within their society. No one much wants to be pranked, but most of us can appreciate a prank’s creativity or the effort to make it work. Between friends, a little rape would be fine, like a running joke, but if one rapes a stranger in the alleyway, that would be frowned upon, like squirting someone with a water pistol. And sure it’s annoying, but failing to arrest someone for that is hardly “siding against the weak”. Their law enforcement have larger crimes to worry about. And for cleverer rapes, they might even have candid camera humor shows for showcasing people’s reactions. And from the other side, particularly horrible rapes would fall under other crimes, just like some pranks end up disturbing the peace or whatever.
Think of it instead as a prank within their society. No one much wants to be pranked, but most of us can appreciate a prank’s creativity or the effort to make it work.
Hmm… speaking of that, me, I simply LOATHE being pranked, and lots of introverted people would support me. “Most of us” sounds like blatant projection on your part.
Okay, so, imagine a (transgender) CEO, known as assertive and somewhat insensitive, but a celebrity in their field—think Steve Jobs—finding it hilarious to jump any employee who enters a workplace restroom, pin them down and attempt anal sex, or coerce themselves to give oral sex without getting anything in return.
The CEO isn’t at all concerned about his partners getting any physical pleasure, zie just thinks of it as a way of reminding employees who’s the boss in a non-stuffy way, and getting an orgasm in the process.
Wouldn’t you agree that many employees who, being introverted, could find this extremely rude, invasive to their privacy (like they would think of an overly annoying boss with an incompatible sense of humor today, except worse) - yet, not wanting to work anywhere else due to how prestigious and innovative the company is, would be in a pretty tight corner? Social convention could make it hard for them to raise their voice at all.
It’s getting 4chan-like because you’re being inflammatory. I don’t condone rape in the real world, I was explaining how legal rape could follow from consistent rules and judgments within the story’s society. You don’t need to describe a rape to me, or use capitals, or bold text; I really, really do understand that rape is bad. Trying to evoke an emotional response in me doesn’t change my estimation of the emotional response for the fictional people in the alternate universe. Also, “lots of people support me” is just as weak an assertion as “most people can appreciate a prank’s creativity”. Though I’d like to point out, that I am in fact one of those people who agree that it’s not often fun to be on the receiving end of a prank, which is why I said “no one much wants to be pranked”.
I upvoted your comments, but this would really benefit from a hard-to-miss disclaimer that you’re talking about (your guess as to) the worldbuilding behind a story about modified humans in the far future. (Or something.) If Multiheaded took it the wrong way even knowing the context, how will it look to a visitor whose first contact with the thread is “Between friends, a little [...] would be fine”?
It’s getting 4chan-like because you’re being inflammatory.
Huh? I was just trying to point out a (possible) social fact! Using bold letters and such to underline the key parts, big deal. I’m sorry if any of this came across as rude or emotionally manipulative, but my intent is strictly to convey a possible reaction of hypothetical people from that future. That’s why I invented the example with the CEO. If you disagree with my priors or conclusions as depicted in the example, please challenge them without falsely projecting my intent.
I wasn’t describing “rape” either, as in fact I quite agree that non-consensual sex in the world of 3WC only has its physical dimension related to our “rape” at all, and therefore I wrote of, in essence, social interaction that’s pleasing for the initiating person and that its object finds annoying/insensitive but difficult and costly to avoid.
And the line about 4chan wasn’t supposed to be disapproving at all, just a humorous comparison (playing more on the popular stereotype of 4chan than a real assessment of its discourse).
I am in fact one of those people who agree that it’s not often fun to be on the receiving end of a prank
I… I fail to understand. Why would you support pranks, then? Doesn’t your and similar people’s negative utility outweigh, for you, the schadenfreude felt by people watching the prank?
If I recall, STDs and unintended pregnancy were virtually nonexistent, and people were psychologically strong enough that it wasn’t traumatic. I suppose if someone attempted rape and the victim defended themselves such that it turned into a fight, then it would be treated the same way as if the rapist had started a fight.
Okay, that does make it quite alright from a more or less modern legal standpoint; “rape” is considered in the same light as a really offensive and provoking physical insult, so that the right of self-defense goes to the victim if they retaliate in a limited manner.
However, it makes NO sense socially; what middle ground is there between (reluctantly) letting someone use you as an object with no will of its own and fighting the rapist off?
Is the victim essentially stripped of the right to determine their consent or lack thereof during the attempt, with their only options in a socially complicated situation being to shut up and never appeal to the law afterwards, or escalate the conflict, which might be harmless for the “rapist” and a huge status hit to the victim.
Really, what about—in a VERY individualist and status-chasing society—the unseen stigma on refusing and reporting someone higher-status than yourself? Isn’t that essentially society siding with the strong against the weak and disapproving if the weak stand up for themselves?
Think of it instead as a prank within their society. No one much wants to be pranked, but most of us can appreciate a prank’s creativity or the effort to make it work. Between friends, a little rape would be fine, like a running joke, but if one rapes a stranger in the alleyway, that would be frowned upon, like squirting someone with a water pistol. And sure it’s annoying, but failing to arrest someone for that is hardly “siding against the weak”. Their law enforcement have larger crimes to worry about. And for cleverer rapes, they might even have candid camera humor shows for showcasing people’s reactions. And from the other side, particularly horrible rapes would fall under other crimes, just like some pranks end up disturbing the peace or whatever.
Hmm… speaking of that, me, I simply LOATHE being pranked, and lots of introverted people would support me. “Most of us” sounds like blatant projection on your part.
Okay, so, imagine a (transgender) CEO, known as assertive and somewhat insensitive, but a celebrity in their field—think Steve Jobs—finding it hilarious to jump any employee who enters a workplace restroom, pin them down and attempt anal sex, or coerce themselves to give oral sex without getting anything in return.
The CEO isn’t at all concerned about his partners getting any physical pleasure, zie just thinks of it as a way of reminding employees who’s the boss in a non-stuffy way, and getting an orgasm in the process.
Wouldn’t you agree that many employees who, being introverted, could find this extremely rude, invasive to their privacy (like they would think of an overly annoying boss with an incompatible sense of humor today, except worse) - yet, not wanting to work anywhere else due to how prestigious and innovative the company is, would be in a pretty tight corner? Social convention could make it hard for them to raise their voice at all.
(Sigh… this discussion is very 4chan-like.)
It’s getting 4chan-like because you’re being inflammatory. I don’t condone rape in the real world, I was explaining how legal rape could follow from consistent rules and judgments within the story’s society. You don’t need to describe a rape to me, or use capitals, or bold text; I really, really do understand that rape is bad. Trying to evoke an emotional response in me doesn’t change my estimation of the emotional response for the fictional people in the alternate universe. Also, “lots of people support me” is just as weak an assertion as “most people can appreciate a prank’s creativity”. Though I’d like to point out, that I am in fact one of those people who agree that it’s not often fun to be on the receiving end of a prank, which is why I said “no one much wants to be pranked”.
I upvoted your comments, but this would really benefit from a hard-to-miss disclaimer that you’re talking about (your guess as to) the worldbuilding behind a story about modified humans in the far future. (Or something.) If Multiheaded took it the wrong way even knowing the context, how will it look to a visitor whose first contact with the thread is “Between friends, a little [...] would be fine”?
Huh? I was just trying to point out a (possible) social fact! Using bold letters and such to underline the key parts, big deal. I’m sorry if any of this came across as rude or emotionally manipulative, but my intent is strictly to convey a possible reaction of hypothetical people from that future. That’s why I invented the example with the CEO. If you disagree with my priors or conclusions as depicted in the example, please challenge them without falsely projecting my intent.
I wasn’t describing “rape” either, as in fact I quite agree that non-consensual sex in the world of 3WC only has its physical dimension related to our “rape” at all, and therefore I wrote of, in essence, social interaction that’s pleasing for the initiating person and that its object finds annoying/insensitive but difficult and costly to avoid.
And the line about 4chan wasn’t supposed to be disapproving at all, just a humorous comparison (playing more on the popular stereotype of 4chan than a real assessment of its discourse).
I… I fail to understand. Why would you support pranks, then? Doesn’t your and similar people’s negative utility outweigh, for you, the schadenfreude felt by people watching the prank?