I think one of the reasons that we are hesitant to say negative things is that we leave out a lot of positive things. I noticed that it’s a lot easier to say when someone is bothering you when you’ve let them know about the many times you’ve been glad they came over or you were happy they called. The same is true when critiquing things, accurately reflecting the good and bad in something as you see it causes you to say far more positive things than you might otherwise even realize.
Also, I think that a lot of our negative opinions are probably a result of our own limited perspective. For example, if a friend asks me “does this make me look fat”...I notice that I start thinking of women I see in .jpg’s and fashion magazines, who aren’t representative of the general population. So while I might think “yes” within that incorrect perspective, in comparison to the actual population of people and the average body they have (which I assume is the standard which “fat” reflects), the REAL correct answer is “no.”
For example, if a friend asks me “does this make me look fat”
Reality check please, on this stereotypical situation.
Have you actually and non-ironically ever been asked a question to the effect of “Does this make me look fat?”
[pollid:605]
If you have, did what they were wearing make any significant difference to your perception of their body shape? (If the situation has arisen more than once, whichever answer is more typical.)
I presume they would know the answer already and wouldn’t be asking. But if they do you can always ask “in comparison to what?” Then it would hopefully be already clear to them how you’re going to answer depending on what they say...so it wouldn’t have to go any further.
When I hear the term “actual fat person,” I take it to mean “unquestionably fat.” Thus it may be that I am picturing the person a good deal larger than you are.
In that case, I can see clearly how you would imagine the person you envision as still asking, while from my perspective the person would be less likely to ask. Most people who I picture as “unquestionably fat” are also used to their body-size and I think, if for some reason they did ask, wouldn’t be as likely to be insulted.
I don’t think it’s a visualization issue. I think it’s assumption-of-rationality issue.
On the other hand, I don’t want this thread to devolve into us posting links to pictures of people and going “and would you consider this person fat? how about this person?”, and there’s not many other places we can take this, so let’s table the matter, I think.
If this person you’re proposing exists, I wouldn’t be concerned about giving them a more honest answer because their brain isn’t working properly. But people like that aren’t relevant to the hypothetical.
If by “brain isn’t working properly” you mean “person has the usual array of cognitive biases; intelligence at the human average or not far above it; and common personality traits such as vanity”, then yes, I agree. Of course, this describes most of humanity. And it’s all that’s required for behavior like what I describe. And saying such people aren’t relevant to the hypothetical means limiting the hypothetical to an awfully small percentage of the human population.
That’s not what I mean. It’s a matter of basic perception.
For example, imagine if you went out to a normal bar with a friend who happens to be a dwarf, and they ask you “am I shorter than everyone else here?”
Clearly, there’s something wrong with your friend’s perception which is why I would either ask them to clarify the question since the answer is obvious to any reasonable person, and if they persist, then I should probably tell them that yes, they are significantly shorter, to help whatever processing problem is going on in their brain.
This is why I made sure to point out that I took the original term to mean “unquestionably fat.”
That is quite a false equivalency, since the term “fat” is loaded with all sorts of normative connotations and judgments, which the word “short” is not.
If you take “fat” to mean something like “in the Nth percentile of mass to height ratio, for some appropriate N”, then you are misunderstanding how most people use the term. When your friend asks you “do I look fat in this dress”, she most certainly is not asking you about the physical facts of her weight in pounds, and how that number relates to relevant population measures. If you answer “yes”, you have not merely provided your best assessment of a physical measurement.
That is quite a false equivalency, since the term “fat” is loaded with all sorts of normative connotations and judgments, which the word “short” is not.
Don’t be so sure of that.. I’ll grant that it isn’t quite as widespread or vocal, but it’s definitely there.
It would be a false equivalency if I wasn’t continually stressing “unquestionably fat.” Meaning that the person is fat within the judgements of almost all reasonable people and thus removing most of the gray area.
In that case, I would indeed compare it to someone who is “unquestionably short” (short can of course depend on the population, and who is being compared as well, but there is certainly a range of height that is also well outside any reasonable measure of average) asking if they were short.
Hopefully thus, you can see how unquestionably short can make the question of “am I short” seem as bizarre or indicative of a perception problem as unquestionably fat can make “do I look fat” in my eyes.
I think one of the reasons that we are hesitant to say negative things is that we leave out a lot of positive things. I noticed that it’s a lot easier to say when someone is bothering you when you’ve let them know about the many times you’ve been glad they came over or you were happy they called. The same is true when critiquing things, accurately reflecting the good and bad in something as you see it causes you to say far more positive things than you might otherwise even realize.
Also, I think that a lot of our negative opinions are probably a result of our own limited perspective. For example, if a friend asks me “does this make me look fat”...I notice that I start thinking of women I see in .jpg’s and fashion magazines, who aren’t representative of the general population. So while I might think “yes” within that incorrect perspective, in comparison to the actual population of people and the average body they have (which I assume is the standard which “fat” reflects), the REAL correct answer is “no.”
Reality check please, on this stereotypical situation.
Have you actually and non-ironically ever been asked a question to the effect of “Does this make me look fat?”
[pollid:605]
If you have, did what they were wearing make any significant difference to your perception of their body shape? (If the situation has arisen more than once, whichever answer is more typical.)
[pollid:606]
Ok, but what if an actual fat person asks you this question?
Edit: Corrected silly misspelling.
I presume they would know the answer already and wouldn’t be asking. But if they do you can always ask “in comparison to what?” Then it would hopefully be already clear to them how you’re going to answer depending on what they say...so it wouldn’t have to go any further.
You have an awfully rosy view of the average person’s reasonableness if you think that:
They wouldn’t ask anyway;
They wouldn’t get offended at a response of “in comparison to what?”
Hi Said,
When I hear the term “actual fat person,” I take it to mean “unquestionably fat.” Thus it may be that I am picturing the person a good deal larger than you are.
In that case, I can see clearly how you would imagine the person you envision as still asking, while from my perspective the person would be less likely to ask. Most people who I picture as “unquestionably fat” are also used to their body-size and I think, if for some reason they did ask, wouldn’t be as likely to be insulted.
I don’t think it’s a visualization issue. I think it’s assumption-of-rationality issue.
On the other hand, I don’t want this thread to devolve into us posting links to pictures of people and going “and would you consider this person fat? how about this person?”, and there’s not many other places we can take this, so let’s table the matter, I think.
If this person you’re proposing exists, I wouldn’t be concerned about giving them a more honest answer because their brain isn’t working properly. But people like that aren’t relevant to the hypothetical.
If by “brain isn’t working properly” you mean “person has the usual array of cognitive biases; intelligence at the human average or not far above it; and common personality traits such as vanity”, then yes, I agree. Of course, this describes most of humanity. And it’s all that’s required for behavior like what I describe. And saying such people aren’t relevant to the hypothetical means limiting the hypothetical to an awfully small percentage of the human population.
That’s not what I mean. It’s a matter of basic perception.
For example, imagine if you went out to a normal bar with a friend who happens to be a dwarf, and they ask you “am I shorter than everyone else here?”
Clearly, there’s something wrong with your friend’s perception which is why I would either ask them to clarify the question since the answer is obvious to any reasonable person, and if they persist, then I should probably tell them that yes, they are significantly shorter, to help whatever processing problem is going on in their brain.
This is why I made sure to point out that I took the original term to mean “unquestionably fat.”
That is quite a false equivalency, since the term “fat” is loaded with all sorts of normative connotations and judgments, which the word “short” is not.
If you take “fat” to mean something like “in the Nth percentile of mass to height ratio, for some appropriate N”, then you are misunderstanding how most people use the term. When your friend asks you “do I look fat in this dress”, she most certainly is not asking you about the physical facts of her weight in pounds, and how that number relates to relevant population measures. If you answer “yes”, you have not merely provided your best assessment of a physical measurement.
Don’t be so sure of that.. I’ll grant that it isn’t quite as widespread or vocal, but it’s definitely there.
On a lighter note, “I expected someone taller”.
Hi Said,
It would be a false equivalency if I wasn’t continually stressing “unquestionably fat.” Meaning that the person is fat within the judgements of almost all reasonable people and thus removing most of the gray area.
In that case, I would indeed compare it to someone who is “unquestionably short” (short can of course depend on the population, and who is being compared as well, but there is certainly a range of height that is also well outside any reasonable measure of average) asking if they were short.
Hopefully thus, you can see how unquestionably short can make the question of “am I short” seem as bizarre or indicative of a perception problem as unquestionably fat can make “do I look fat” in my eyes.