Ironically, I considered posting a comment to the effect that I disagree with some parts of your description of “what constitutes adhering to the standards”, but reasoned that it’s rather a moot point until and unless the meta-level issues are resolved…
(I will note that while I do agree that it tends to be possible to go up a meta level, I also think there’s a limit to how much real progress can be made that way. But this is itself already too meta, so let’s table it for now.)
Back to the point: if the Less Wrong team is still opposed to the general approach of “let’s substantially raise our standards, and if that makes many current members leave or go quiet (as surely will happen), well… so be it [or maybe even: ‘good!’]”, then isn’t the answer to “what is to be done?” necessarily “nothing, because nothing is permitted to be done”? In other words, don’t we actually already know that “LW isn’t going to be that place”?
Or is it just that this post is mostly aimed at the LW team, and intended to shift their views (so that they change their as-practiced policy w.r.t. intellectual standards)?
I assumed this post was mostly aimed at the LW team (maybe with some opportunity for other people to weigh in). I think periodically posting posts dedicated to arguing the moderation policy should change is fine and good.
Worth noting that I’ve had different disagreements you with and Duncan. In both cases I think the discussion is much subtler than “increase standards: yay/nay?”. It matters a lot which standards, and what they’re supposed to be doing, and how different things trade off against each other.
Worth noting that I’ve had different disagreements you with and Duncan. In both cases I think the discussion is much subtler than “increase standards: yay/nay?”. It matters a lot which standards, and what they’re supposed to be doing, and how different things trade off against each other.
Yes, yes, that’s all fine, but the critical point of contention here is (and previously has been) the fact that increasing standards (in one way or another) would result in many current participants leaving. To me, this is fine and even desirable. Whereas the LW mod team has consistently expressed their opposition to this outcome…
I think this is a fair summary of what we said years ago. I’m not sure how much people’s minds have changed on the issue. I think Ben Pace’s warning of Said (you have to scroll to the bottom of the page and then expand that thread) and the related comments are probably the place to look, including habryka’s comment here.
Before checking the moderation list, the posts that come to mind (as a place to start looking for this sort of conversation) were Kensho (where I think a lot of the mods viewed Said as asking the right questions) and Meta-Discussion from Circling as a Cousin to Rationality (where I viewed Said as asking the right questions, and I think others didn’t).
I feel a little shy about the word “aimed” … I think that I have aimed posts at the LW team before (e.g. my moderating LessWrong post) but while I was happy and excited about the idea of you guys seeing and engaging with this one, it wasn’t a stealth message to the team. It really was meant for the broader LW audience to see and have opinions on.
Ironically, I considered posting a comment to the effect that I disagree with some parts of your description of “what constitutes adhering to the standards”, but reasoned that it’s rather a moot point until and unless the meta-level issues are resolved…
(I will note that while I do agree that it tends to be possible to go up a meta level, I also think there’s a limit to how much real progress can be made that way. But this is itself already too meta, so let’s table it for now.)
Back to the point: if the Less Wrong team is still opposed to the general approach of “let’s substantially raise our standards, and if that makes many current members leave or go quiet (as surely will happen), well… so be it [or maybe even: ‘good!’]”, then isn’t the answer to “what is to be done?” necessarily “nothing, because nothing is permitted to be done”? In other words, don’t we actually already know that “LW isn’t going to be that place”?
Or is it just that this post is mostly aimed at the LW team, and intended to shift their views (so that they change their as-practiced policy w.r.t. intellectual standards)?
I assumed this post was mostly aimed at the LW team (maybe with some opportunity for other people to weigh in). I think periodically posting posts dedicated to arguing the moderation policy should change is fine and good.
Worth noting that I’ve had different disagreements you with and Duncan. In both cases I think the discussion is much subtler than “increase standards: yay/nay?”. It matters a lot which standards, and what they’re supposed to be doing, and how different things trade off against each other.
Yes, yes, that’s all fine, but the critical point of contention here is (and previously has been) the fact that increasing standards (in one way or another) would result in many current participants leaving. To me, this is fine and even desirable. Whereas the LW mod team has consistently expressed their opposition to this outcome…
Would you mind quoting, anonymized if necessary? Mostly because I’m curious whether the summary will seem to me actually match the words.
I think this is a fair summary of what we said years ago. I’m not sure how much people’s minds have changed on the issue. I think Ben Pace’s warning of Said (you have to scroll to the bottom of the page and then expand that thread) and the related comments are probably the place to look, including habryka’s comment here.
Before checking the moderation list, the posts that come to mind (as a place to start looking for this sort of conversation) were Kensho (where I think a lot of the mods viewed Said as asking the right questions) and Meta-Discussion from Circling as a Cousin to Rationality (where I viewed Said as asking the right questions, and I think others didn’t).
Sure, I will see if I can locate some of the threads I have in mind. It may take me a day or several before I’ve got the time to do it, though.
Seems low-urgency to me.
I feel a little shy about the word “aimed” … I think that I have aimed posts at the LW team before (e.g. my moderating LessWrong post) but while I was happy and excited about the idea of you guys seeing and engaging with this one, it wasn’t a stealth message to the team. It really was meant for the broader LW audience to see and have opinions on.