That misses my point. When people say awesome, they don’t think back at the consequences or look forward for consequences. People say awesome without thinking about it AT ALL.
OK, let’s say you’re right, and people say “awesome” without thinking at all. I imagine Nyan_Sandwich would view that as a feature of the word, rather than as a bug. The point of using “awesome” in moral discourse is precisely to bypass conscious thought (which a quick review of formal philosophy suggests is highly misleading) and access common-sense intuitions.
I think it’s fair to be concerned that people are mistaken about what is awesome, in the sense that (a) they can’t accurately predict ex ante what states of the world they will wind up approving of, or in the sense that (b) what you think is awesome significantly diverges from what I (and perhaps from what a supermajority of people) think is awesome, or in the sense that (c) it shouldn’t matter what people approve of, because the ‘right’ think to do is something else entirely that doesn’t depend on what people approve of.
But merely to point out that saying “awesome” involves no conscious thought is not a very strong objection. Why should we always have to use conscious thought when we make moral judgments?
Those are both good points. I view it as a bug because I feel like too much ethical thought bypasses conscious thought to ill affect. This can range from people not thinking about the ethics homosexuality because their pastor tells them its a sin to not thinking about the ethics of invading a country because people believe they are responsible for an attack of some kind, whether they are or not. However, Nyan_Sandwich’s ethics of awesome does appear to bypass such problems, to an extent. It’s hardly s, but it appears like it would do its job better than many other ethical systems in place today.
I should note that it wasn’t ever intended to be a very strong objection. As a matter of fact, the original objection wasn’t to the conclusions made, but to the path taken to get to them. If an argument for a conclusion I agree with is faulty, I usually attempt to point out the faults in the argument so that the argument can be better.
Also, I apologize for taking so long to respond. life (and Minecraft playing) interfered with me checking LessWrong, and I’m not yet used to checking it regularly as I’m new here.
OK, so how else might we get people to gate-check the troublesome, philosophical, misleading parts of their moral intuitions that would have fewer undesirable side effects? I tend to agree with you that it’s good when people pause to reflect on consequences—but then when they evaluate those consequences I want them to just consult their gut feeling, as it were. Sooner or later the train of conscious reasoning had better dead-end in an intuitively held preference, or it’s spectacularly unlikely to fulfill anyone’s intuitively held preferences. (I, of course, intuitively prefer that such preferences be fulfilled.)
How do we prompt that kind of behavior? How can we get people to turn the logical brain on for consequentialism but off for normative ethics?
Am I to understand that you’re suggesting that we apply awesomeness to the consequences, and not the actions? Because that would be different from what I thought was being implied by saying “‘Awesome’ is implicitly consequentialist.” What I took that to mean is that, when one looks at an action, and decides whether or not it is awesome, the person is determining whether or not the consequences are something that they find desirable. That is distinct from looking at consequences and determining whether or not the consequences are awesome. That requires one to ALREADY be looking at things consequentially.
I think that, after thinking of things, when people use the term “awesome” they use it differently depending on how they view the world. If someone is already a consequentialist, that person will look at things consequentially when using the word awesome. If someone is already a dentologist, that person will look at the fulfillment of duties when using the word awesome. This is just a hypothesis, and I’m not very certain that it’s true, at the moment.
I’m not entirely sure how to prompt that sort of behavior, to be honest.
Because that would be different from what I thought was being implied by saying “‘Awesome’ is implicitly consequentialist.”
I meant that we should be looking at the awesomeness of outcomes and not actions, and that “awesome” is more effective at prompting this behavior than “good”. It looks like you get it, if I understand you correctly.
If someone is already a dentologist, that person will look at the fulfillment of duties when using the word awesome.
I find that somewhat implausible. If they are a hardcore explicit deontologist who,against the spirit of this article, has attempted to import their previous moral beliefs/confusions into their interpretation of “awesomism”, then yeah. For random folks who intuitively lean towards deontology for “good”, I think “awesome” is still going to be substantially more consequentialist. I would expect variation, though.
I wonder how you could test this. Maybe next year’s survey could have some scenarios that ask for an awesomeness ranking, and some other scenarios that ask for a goodness raking, and some more with a rightness ranking. Then we could see how people’s intuitions vary with whether they claim to be deontologist or consequentialist, and with prompting wording. This could put the claims in the OP here on a more solid footing than “this works for me”.
I meant that we should be looking at the awesomeness of outcomes and not actions, and that “awesome” is more effective at prompting this behavior than “good”. It looks like you get it, if I understand you correctly.
Oh! That does make sense. I can see your point with that.
I find that somewhat implausible. If they are a hardcore explicit deontologist who,against the spirit of this article, has attempted to import their previous moral beliefs/confusions into their interpretation of “awesomism”, then yeah. For random folks who intuitively lean towards deontology for “good”, I think “awesome” is still going to be substantially more consequentialist.
Possibly. I’m honestly not sure which hypothesis would be more correct, at the moment. Testing it would probably be a good idea, if we had the resources to do it. (Do we have the resources for that? I wouldn’t expect it, but weirder things have happened.)
Maybe next year’s survey could have some scenarios that ask for an awesomeness ranking, and some other scenarios that ask for a goodness raking, and some more with a rightness ranking. Then we could see how people’s intuitions vary with whether they claim to be deontologist or consequentialist, and with prompting wording. This could put the claims in the OP here on a more solid footing than “this works for me”.
I don’t think that would work. People here tend to be more consequentialist than I’ve seen from people not from here, so we’d probably not be able to see as much of a difference. Plus, the people here are hardly what I’d call normal and are more homogeneous than a more standard set of people. To effectively test that, we’d have to conduct that survey with a more random group of people. I mean, that survey would work, but the sample should be different than the contributors of LessWrong.
I don’t think that would work. People here tend to be more consequentialist than I’ve seen from people not from here, so we’d probably not be able to see as much of a difference. Plus, the people here are hardly what I’d call normal and are more homogeneous than a more standard set of people. To effectively test that, we’d have to conduct that survey with a more random group of people. I mean, that survey would work, but the sample should be different than the contributors of LessWrong.
If the number of deontologists isn’t big enough to power our inference, the stats should tell us this. There are some though.
And I think going outside LW is unnecessary. This essay is hardly aimed at people-in-general.
If the number of deontologists isn’t big enough to power our inference, the stats should tell us this. There are some though.
That’s true. Perhaps we could sort them by what their results with “good” show us about which normative ethical theory they follow, then compare the results of each of the groupings between “good” and “awesome”. That would show us the results without consequentialists acting as white noise.
And I think going outside LW is unnecessary. This essay is hardly aimed at people-in-general.
Good point, though it would be interesting to see if it could be applied to people outside of LW.
That misses my point. When people say awesome, they don’t think back at the consequences or look forward for consequences. People say awesome without thinking about it AT ALL.
OK, let’s say you’re right, and people say “awesome” without thinking at all. I imagine Nyan_Sandwich would view that as a feature of the word, rather than as a bug. The point of using “awesome” in moral discourse is precisely to bypass conscious thought (which a quick review of formal philosophy suggests is highly misleading) and access common-sense intuitions.
I think it’s fair to be concerned that people are mistaken about what is awesome, in the sense that (a) they can’t accurately predict ex ante what states of the world they will wind up approving of, or in the sense that (b) what you think is awesome significantly diverges from what I (and perhaps from what a supermajority of people) think is awesome, or in the sense that (c) it shouldn’t matter what people approve of, because the ‘right’ think to do is something else entirely that doesn’t depend on what people approve of.
But merely to point out that saying “awesome” involves no conscious thought is not a very strong objection. Why should we always have to use conscious thought when we make moral judgments?
Those are both good points. I view it as a bug because I feel like too much ethical thought bypasses conscious thought to ill affect. This can range from people not thinking about the ethics homosexuality because their pastor tells them its a sin to not thinking about the ethics of invading a country because people believe they are responsible for an attack of some kind, whether they are or not. However, Nyan_Sandwich’s ethics of awesome does appear to bypass such problems, to an extent. It’s hardly s, but it appears like it would do its job better than many other ethical systems in place today.
I should note that it wasn’t ever intended to be a very strong objection. As a matter of fact, the original objection wasn’t to the conclusions made, but to the path taken to get to them. If an argument for a conclusion I agree with is faulty, I usually attempt to point out the faults in the argument so that the argument can be better.
Also, I apologize for taking so long to respond. life (and Minecraft playing) interfered with me checking LessWrong, and I’m not yet used to checking it regularly as I’m new here.
OK, so how else might we get people to gate-check the troublesome, philosophical, misleading parts of their moral intuitions that would have fewer undesirable side effects? I tend to agree with you that it’s good when people pause to reflect on consequences—but then when they evaluate those consequences I want them to just consult their gut feeling, as it were. Sooner or later the train of conscious reasoning had better dead-end in an intuitively held preference, or it’s spectacularly unlikely to fulfill anyone’s intuitively held preferences. (I, of course, intuitively prefer that such preferences be fulfilled.)
How do we prompt that kind of behavior? How can we get people to turn the logical brain on for consequentialism but off for normative ethics?
Am I to understand that you’re suggesting that we apply awesomeness to the consequences, and not the actions? Because that would be different from what I thought was being implied by saying “‘Awesome’ is implicitly consequentialist.” What I took that to mean is that, when one looks at an action, and decides whether or not it is awesome, the person is determining whether or not the consequences are something that they find desirable. That is distinct from looking at consequences and determining whether or not the consequences are awesome. That requires one to ALREADY be looking at things consequentially.
I think that, after thinking of things, when people use the term “awesome” they use it differently depending on how they view the world. If someone is already a consequentialist, that person will look at things consequentially when using the word awesome. If someone is already a dentologist, that person will look at the fulfillment of duties when using the word awesome. This is just a hypothesis, and I’m not very certain that it’s true, at the moment.
I’m not entirely sure how to prompt that sort of behavior, to be honest.
I meant that we should be looking at the awesomeness of outcomes and not actions, and that “awesome” is more effective at prompting this behavior than “good”. It looks like you get it, if I understand you correctly.
I find that somewhat implausible. If they are a hardcore explicit deontologist who,against the spirit of this article, has attempted to import their previous moral beliefs/confusions into their interpretation of “awesomism”, then yeah. For random folks who intuitively lean towards deontology for “good”, I think “awesome” is still going to be substantially more consequentialist. I would expect variation, though.
I wonder how you could test this. Maybe next year’s survey could have some scenarios that ask for an awesomeness ranking, and some other scenarios that ask for a goodness raking, and some more with a rightness ranking. Then we could see how people’s intuitions vary with whether they claim to be deontologist or consequentialist, and with prompting wording. This could put the claims in the OP here on a more solid footing than “this works for me”.
Oh! That does make sense. I can see your point with that.
Possibly. I’m honestly not sure which hypothesis would be more correct, at the moment. Testing it would probably be a good idea, if we had the resources to do it. (Do we have the resources for that? I wouldn’t expect it, but weirder things have happened.)
I don’t think that would work. People here tend to be more consequentialist than I’ve seen from people not from here, so we’d probably not be able to see as much of a difference. Plus, the people here are hardly what I’d call normal and are more homogeneous than a more standard set of people. To effectively test that, we’d have to conduct that survey with a more random group of people. I mean, that survey would work, but the sample should be different than the contributors of LessWrong.
If the number of deontologists isn’t big enough to power our inference, the stats should tell us this. There are some though.
And I think going outside LW is unnecessary. This essay is hardly aimed at people-in-general.
That’s true. Perhaps we could sort them by what their results with “good” show us about which normative ethical theory they follow, then compare the results of each of the groupings between “good” and “awesome”. That would show us the results without consequentialists acting as white noise.
Good point, though it would be interesting to see if it could be applied to people outside of LW.