There is some confusion here. Asking Less Wrong flavored questions using theological terms generally requires misusing the terms. This is unfortunate, because these questions are really interesting, but most us don’t have the requisite understanding of theology to do it well (including myself obviously(although, I venture that I might know more than most(#nesting))). So, my answer will be really disappointing.
In the monotheistic theology of Islam (represented by Al-Farabi), Judaism (represented by Maimonides), and, Christianity (represented by Thomas Aquinas), when it is said that God is omnipotent, they are saying God is not lacking in power, not that God can actually will to do any particular action whatsoever. In this way God is restrained. For example, God cannot create a rock so heavy that he cannot lift it because that is not a logical possibility. Or as a mathematician once said, “Nonsense is nonsense, even if you say it about God.”
To your question about a loving God’s possibility to deceive. This is a tough question because it is several in one. Can God deceive, can God’s nature be learned about through observation of the created universe, and can God deceive about his nature? The first two questions are contested within each faith tradition, the third question (which I think is most relevant here) third is not disputed by the three philosophers. They all would say, “No.”
I’m going to summarize a really long arguments the best I can: since God is a self-caused simple being (having no parts and lacking in no quality), his intellect (it’s an operation) can only be directed toward Truth and his will (it’s his other operation) can only be directed toward the Good (which is love).
This argument requires that we agree that Truth and Goodness have a primary level of existence, whereas falsity and evil exist contingently on the existence of truth and goodness. Since God has no parts, he cannot be oriented towards the composite essences of falsity and evil.
This is definitely an unsatisfying solution for most of us. The major problem for us approaching Theological Epistemology, as I see it, is that we have to start by explaining what metaphysics we are willing to accept and what we aren’t.
Despite the way the question is phrased, it’s not really “can God deceive about his nature”, the question is “can some other being, who resembles God but has a different nature, deceive you into thinking he has the first type of nature”. It doesn’t sound like those religious answers you describe are addressing that question.
I appreciate your summary of these religions’ ideas on the question.
I do think the God’s rock question could be answered in theory; it seems to ask whether God’s power for creation exceeds his power to apply force. If we’re allowing some kind of limits, I don’t know that these powers would end up perfectly equal.
That aside, I want to clarify my question. I thank you again for providing what sound like somewhat technical, somewhat mysterious explanations, but in any case genuine religious teachings, especially since I could buy believers buying them.
To my mind, these answers answer not. In the best-case scenario, that these spokesmen are inspired by some other being, that being has told them that it has these qualities which keep it from deceiving.
Surely, these data are as suspect as all originating from an omnipotent being that claims to embody love. If it wants you to believe it does, it’s hardly out of character to provide at least some semblance of support for its preferred conclusion.
And of course, if both a loving and a deceiving omnipotent being would provide such, its presence is not evidence for either over the other.
In the best-case scenario, these spokesmen are able to come to the conclusion that God is not lacking in power and is incapable of deception using just logic and natural philosophy, aka science. Revelation isn’t knowledge in the same way that philosophy and science provide knowledge. Revelation is knowledge gained by an act of the will, i.e, you just assent to it. The other types of knowledge are gained by human reason through the senses.
Many people throughout theological history have thought they could not only prove the existence of God, but also prove he has those qualities which we generally associate with God, like omnipresence, simplicity, and goodness. Many of these arguments do prove something, but generally not something we would consider a loving, personal God. For that you generally need a Holy Writ and Divine Inspiration.
In theological epistemology there is a logical impossibility for the Supreme Being to do something heinous. If the source of the inspiration is indeed God, you will not need to doubt its truth (you’d just do that assent thing). But what if the inspiration isn’t from God, but a very powerful, invisible, and ineffable being that seems similar? Now we’re cooking with oil. How would we know? Could you tell the difference?
Here’s a digression.
Imagine a voice comes to you and says, “I want you to be the Father of my people. You will have a son even though your wife is wicked old.” Then you discover that your wife is pregnant. You have a son! Later the voice comes again and says, “Kill your only-begotten son, even though you love him, in my name.” When you go to kill your son, an angel of the same God stops you at the last moment, and your faith that the voice was not evil is vindicated (supposedly).
This is the ancient story of Abraham and Isaac in the Hebrew Bible. Abraham is the Father of all three monotheistic traditions today. Why did Abraham think the one God was speaking to him and not some demon? How is it that God can make what seems an unethical command? This is the subject of Kierkegaard’s book, Fear and Trembling.
End of digression.
I think at a practical level, we have to reject the type of skepticism you are proposing. If we did live in such a world, there would be very little, if any, reliability in inductive reasoning, and we would have to radically doubt all knowledge that wasn’t either tautological or reducible to non-contradiction. Imagine if the Abrahamic God did exist but wasn’t God, just a powerful, deceiving spirit who has been working in the world, pretending to love it this entire time.
If observation is tampered with, you can’t know for certain. If it isn’t tampered with, you might accept something like, “there is an act of love which a pretending God couldn’t fake.” Choose your Schelling-point for true love vs. seeming love and go from there.
There is some confusion here. Asking Less Wrong flavored questions using theological terms generally requires misusing the terms. This is unfortunate, because these questions are really interesting, but most us don’t have the requisite understanding of theology to do it well (including myself obviously(although, I venture that I might know more than most(#nesting))). So, my answer will be really disappointing.
In the monotheistic theology of Islam (represented by Al-Farabi), Judaism (represented by Maimonides), and, Christianity (represented by Thomas Aquinas), when it is said that God is omnipotent, they are saying God is not lacking in power, not that God can actually will to do any particular action whatsoever. In this way God is restrained. For example, God cannot create a rock so heavy that he cannot lift it because that is not a logical possibility. Or as a mathematician once said, “Nonsense is nonsense, even if you say it about God.”
To your question about a loving God’s possibility to deceive. This is a tough question because it is several in one. Can God deceive, can God’s nature be learned about through observation of the created universe, and can God deceive about his nature? The first two questions are contested within each faith tradition, the third question (which I think is most relevant here) third is not disputed by the three philosophers. They all would say, “No.”
I’m going to summarize a really long arguments the best I can: since God is a self-caused simple being (having no parts and lacking in no quality), his intellect (it’s an operation) can only be directed toward Truth and his will (it’s his other operation) can only be directed toward the Good (which is love).
This argument requires that we agree that Truth and Goodness have a primary level of existence, whereas falsity and evil exist contingently on the existence of truth and goodness. Since God has no parts, he cannot be oriented towards the composite essences of falsity and evil.
This is definitely an unsatisfying solution for most of us. The major problem for us approaching Theological Epistemology, as I see it, is that we have to start by explaining what metaphysics we are willing to accept and what we aren’t.
Despite the way the question is phrased, it’s not really “can God deceive about his nature”, the question is “can some other being, who resembles God but has a different nature, deceive you into thinking he has the first type of nature”. It doesn’t sound like those religious answers you describe are addressing that question.
I appreciate your summary of these religions’ ideas on the question.
I do think the God’s rock question could be answered in theory; it seems to ask whether God’s power for creation exceeds his power to apply force. If we’re allowing some kind of limits, I don’t know that these powers would end up perfectly equal.
That aside, I want to clarify my question. I thank you again for providing what sound like somewhat technical, somewhat mysterious explanations, but in any case genuine religious teachings, especially since I could buy believers buying them.
To my mind, these answers answer not. In the best-case scenario, that these spokesmen are inspired by some other being, that being has told them that it has these qualities which keep it from deceiving.
Surely, these data are as suspect as all originating from an omnipotent being that claims to embody love. If it wants you to believe it does, it’s hardly out of character to provide at least some semblance of support for its preferred conclusion.
And of course, if both a loving and a deceiving omnipotent being would provide such, its presence is not evidence for either over the other.
In the best-case scenario, these spokesmen are able to come to the conclusion that God is not lacking in power and is incapable of deception using just logic and natural philosophy, aka science. Revelation isn’t knowledge in the same way that philosophy and science provide knowledge. Revelation is knowledge gained by an act of the will, i.e, you just assent to it. The other types of knowledge are gained by human reason through the senses.
Many people throughout theological history have thought they could not only prove the existence of God, but also prove he has those qualities which we generally associate with God, like omnipresence, simplicity, and goodness. Many of these arguments do prove something, but generally not something we would consider a loving, personal God. For that you generally need a Holy Writ and Divine Inspiration.
In theological epistemology there is a logical impossibility for the Supreme Being to do something heinous. If the source of the inspiration is indeed God, you will not need to doubt its truth (you’d just do that assent thing). But what if the inspiration isn’t from God, but a very powerful, invisible, and ineffable being that seems similar? Now we’re cooking with oil. How would we know? Could you tell the difference?
Here’s a digression.
Imagine a voice comes to you and says, “I want you to be the Father of my people. You will have a son even though your wife is wicked old.” Then you discover that your wife is pregnant. You have a son! Later the voice comes again and says, “Kill your only-begotten son, even though you love him, in my name.” When you go to kill your son, an angel of the same God stops you at the last moment, and your faith that the voice was not evil is vindicated (supposedly).
This is the ancient story of Abraham and Isaac in the Hebrew Bible. Abraham is the Father of all three monotheistic traditions today. Why did Abraham think the one God was speaking to him and not some demon? How is it that God can make what seems an unethical command? This is the subject of Kierkegaard’s book, Fear and Trembling.
End of digression.
I think at a practical level, we have to reject the type of skepticism you are proposing. If we did live in such a world, there would be very little, if any, reliability in inductive reasoning, and we would have to radically doubt all knowledge that wasn’t either tautological or reducible to non-contradiction. Imagine if the Abrahamic God did exist but wasn’t God, just a powerful, deceiving spirit who has been working in the world, pretending to love it this entire time.
If observation is tampered with, you can’t know for certain. If it isn’t tampered with, you might accept something like, “there is an act of love which a pretending God couldn’t fake.” Choose your Schelling-point for true love vs. seeming love and go from there.