Omega comes to you and offers $1, explaining that it decided to do so if and only if it predicts that you won’t take the money. What do you do? It looks neutral, since expected gain in both cases is zero. But the decision to take the $1 sounds rather bizarre: if you take the $1, then you don’t exist!
Agents self-consistent under reflection are counterfactual zombies, indifferent to whether they are real or not.
But the decision to take the $1 sounds rather bizarre: if you take the $1, then you don’t exist!
No. It just means you are a simulation. These are very different things. “I think therefore I am” is still deductively valid (and really, do you want to give the predicate calculus that knife in the back?). You might not be what you thought you were but all “I” refers to is the originator of the utterance.
Then if you take the money Omega was just wrong. Full stop.
Assuming that you won’t actually take the money, what would a plan to take the money mean? It’s a kind of retroactive impossibility, where among two options one is impossible not because you can’t push that button, but because you won’t be there to push it. Usual impossibility is just additional info for the could-should picture of the game, to be updated on, so that you exclude the option from consideration. This kind of impossibility is conceptually trickier.
I don’t see how my non-existence gets implied. Why isn’t a plan to take the money either a plan that will fail to work (you’re arm won’t respond to your brain’s commands, you’ll die, you’ll tunnel to the Moon etc.) or a plan that would imply Omega was wrong and shouldn’t have made the offer?
My existence is already posited one you’ve said that Omega has offered me this deal. What happens after that bears on whether or not Omega is correct and what properties I have (i.e. what I am).
There exists (x) &e there exists (y) such that Ox & Iy & ($xy <--> N$yx)
Where O= is Omega, I= is me, $= offer one dollar to, N$= won’t take dollar from. I don’t see how one can take that, add new information, and conclude ~ there exists (y).
I don’t get it, I have to admit. All the experiment seems to be saying is that “if I take the $1, I exist only as a short term simulation in Omega’s mind”. It says you don’t exist as a long-term seperate individual, but doesn’t say you don’t exist in this very moment...
Simulation is a very specific form of prediction (but the most intuitive, when it comes to prediction of difficult decisions). Prediction doesn’t imply simulation. At this very moment I predict that you will choose to NOT cut your own hand off with an axe when asked to, but I’m not simulating you.
In that case (I’ll return to the whole simulation/prediction issue some other time), I don’t follow the logic at all. If Omega offers you that deal, and you take the money, all that you have shown is that Omega is in error.
But maybe its a consequence of advanced decision theory?
That’s the central issue of this paradox: the part of the scenario before you take the money can actually exist, but if you choose to take the money, it follows that it doesn’t. The paradox doesn’t take for granted that the described scenario does take place, it describes what happens (could happen) from your perspective, in a way in which you’d plan your own actions, not from the external perspective.
Think of your thought process in the case where in the end you decide not to take the money: how you consider taking the money, and what that action would mean (that is, what’s its effect in the generalized sense of TDT, like the effect of you cooperating in PD on the other player or the effect of one-boxing on contents of the boxes). I suggest that the planned action of taking the money means that you don’t exist in that scenario.
I see it, somewhat. But this sounds a lot like “I’m Omega, I am trustworthy and accurate, and I will only speak to you if I’ve predicted you will not imagine a pink rhinoceros as soon as you hear this sentence”.
The correct conclusion seems to be that Omega is not what he says he is, rather than “I don’t exist”.
When the problem contains a self-contradiction like this, there is not actually one “obvious” proposition which must be false. One of them must be false, certainly, but it is not possible to derive which one from the problem statement.
Compare this problem to another, possibly more symmetrical, problem with self-contradictory premises:
The decision diagonal in TDT is a simple computation (at least, it looks simple assuming large complicated black-boxes, like a causal model of reality) and there’s no particular reason that equation can only execute in sentient contexts. Faced with Omega in this case, I take the $1 - there is no reason for me not to do so—and conclude that Omega incorrectly executed the equation in the context outside my own mind.
Even if we suppose that “cogito ergo sum” presents an extra bit of evidence to me, whereby I truly know that I am the “real” me and not just the simple equation in a nonsentient context, it is still easy enough for Omega to simulate that equation plus the extra (false) bit of info, thereby recorrelating it with me.
If Omega really follows the stated algorithm for Omega, then the decision equation never executes in a sentient context. If it executes in a sentient context, then I know Omega wasn’t following the stated algorithm. Just like if Omega says “I will offer you this $1 only if 1 = 2” and then offers you the $1.
This shows that inference “I think therefore I exist” is, in general, invalid. You can’t update on your own existence (although you can use more specific info as parameters in your strategy).
Rather, you should look at yourself as an implication: “If I exist in this situation, then my actions are as I now decide”.
This might be a dumb question, but couldn’t the inference of your existence be valid AND bring with it the implication that your actions are as you decide?
After all, if you begin thinking of yourself as an inference, and you think to yourself, “Well, now, IF I exist, THEN yadda yadda...”—I mean, Don’t you exist at that point?
If non-existence is a negative, then you must be existant if you’re thinking anything at all. A decision cannot be made by nothing, right?
If Omega is making you an offer, Omega is validating your existence. Why would Omega, or anyone ask a question and expect a reply from something that doesn’t exist? You can also prove to yourself you exist as you consider the offer because you are engaged in a thinking process.
It feels more natural to say “I think, therefore I exist, and my actions are as I now decide.”
That said, I don’t think anyone can decide themselves out of existence LoL. As far as we know, energy is the only positive in the universe, and it cannot be destroyed, only transformed. So if your conciousness is tied to the structure of the matter you are comprised of, which is a form of energy, which is a positive, then it cannot become a negative, it can only transform into something else.
Maybe the whole “quantum observer” thing can explain why you DO die/disappear: Because if Omega gave you a choice, and you chose to no longer exist, Omega is “forced”, if you will, to observe your decision to cease existence. It’s part of the integrity of reality, I guess—existence usually implies free will AND it implies that you are a constant observer of the universe. If everything in the universe is made of the same thing you are, then everything else should also have the same qualities as you.
Every other positive thing has free will and is a constant observer. With this level playing field, you really have no choice but to accept your observations of the decisions that others make, and likewise others have no choice but to accept whatever decisions you make when they observe you.
So as the reality of your decision is accepted by Omega—Omega perceives you as gone for good. And so does anyone else who was observing. But somehow you’re still around LoL
Maybe that explains ghosts??? lol ;-D I know that sounds all woo-woo but the main point is this: it’s very hard to say that you can choose non-existence if you are a positive, because so far as we know, you can’t undo a positive.
(It reminds me of something Ayn Rand said that made me raise an eyebrow at the whole Objectivism thing: She said you can’t prove a negative and you can’t disprove a positive. I always thought it was the other way around: You can’t disprove a negative (you can’t destroy something that doesn’t exist), and you can’t prove a positive (it’s fallacious to attempt to prove the existence of an absolute, because the existence of an absolute is not up for debate!).
Ayn Rand’s statements were correct without being “true” somehow. You can’t prove a negative because if you could it would be a positive. Where as you can’t disprove a negative because if you COULD disprove a negative you would just end up with a double-negative?? Whaaat???
If disproving a negative was possible (meaning that disproving a negative could turn it into a positive) that would be the same as creating something out of nothing. It still violates the Law of Conservation of Energy, because the law states that you cannot create energy (can’t turn a negative into a positive)
As we are discussing SIA, I’d like to remind about counterfactual zombie thought experiment:
This shows that inference “I think therefore I exist” is, in general, invalid. You can’t update on your own existence (although you can use more specific info as parameters in your strategy).
Rather, you should look at yourself as an implication: “If I exist in this situation, then my actions are as I now decide”.
No. It just means you are a simulation. These are very different things. “I think therefore I am” is still deductively valid (and really, do you want to give the predicate calculus that knife in the back?). You might not be what you thought you were but all “I” refers to is the originator of the utterance.
Remember: there was no simulation, only prediction. Distinction with a difference.
Then if you take the money Omega was just wrong. Full stop. And in this case if you take the dollar expected gain is a dollar.
Or else you need to clarify.
Assuming that you won’t actually take the money, what would a plan to take the money mean? It’s a kind of retroactive impossibility, where among two options one is impossible not because you can’t push that button, but because you won’t be there to push it. Usual impossibility is just additional info for the could-should picture of the game, to be updated on, so that you exclude the option from consideration. This kind of impossibility is conceptually trickier.
I don’t see how my non-existence gets implied. Why isn’t a plan to take the money either a plan that will fail to work (you’re arm won’t respond to your brain’s commands, you’ll die, you’ll tunnel to the Moon etc.) or a plan that would imply Omega was wrong and shouldn’t have made the offer?
My existence is already posited one you’ve said that Omega has offered me this deal. What happens after that bears on whether or not Omega is correct and what properties I have (i.e. what I am).
There exists (x) &e there exists (y) such that Ox & Iy & ($xy <--> N$yx)
Where O= is Omega, I= is me, $= offer one dollar to, N$= won’t take dollar from. I don’t see how one can take that, add new information, and conclude ~ there exists (y).
I don’t get it, I have to admit. All the experiment seems to be saying is that “if I take the $1, I exist only as a short term simulation in Omega’s mind”. It says you don’t exist as a long-term seperate individual, but doesn’t say you don’t exist in this very moment...
Simulation is a very specific form of prediction (but the most intuitive, when it comes to prediction of difficult decisions). Prediction doesn’t imply simulation. At this very moment I predict that you will choose to NOT cut your own hand off with an axe when asked to, but I’m not simulating you.
In that case (I’ll return to the whole simulation/prediction issue some other time), I don’t follow the logic at all. If Omega offers you that deal, and you take the money, all that you have shown is that Omega is in error.
But maybe its a consequence of advanced decision theory?
That’s the central issue of this paradox: the part of the scenario before you take the money can actually exist, but if you choose to take the money, it follows that it doesn’t. The paradox doesn’t take for granted that the described scenario does take place, it describes what happens (could happen) from your perspective, in a way in which you’d plan your own actions, not from the external perspective.
Think of your thought process in the case where in the end you decide not to take the money: how you consider taking the money, and what that action would mean (that is, what’s its effect in the generalized sense of TDT, like the effect of you cooperating in PD on the other player or the effect of one-boxing on contents of the boxes). I suggest that the planned action of taking the money means that you don’t exist in that scenario.
I see it, somewhat. But this sounds a lot like “I’m Omega, I am trustworthy and accurate, and I will only speak to you if I’ve predicted you will not imagine a pink rhinoceros as soon as you hear this sentence”.
The correct conclusion seems to be that Omega is not what he says he is, rather than “I don’t exist”.
When the problem contains a self-contradiction like this, there is not actually one “obvious” proposition which must be false. One of them must be false, certainly, but it is not possible to derive which one from the problem statement.
Compare this problem to another, possibly more symmetrical, problem with self-contradictory premises:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irresistible_force_paradox
The decision diagonal in TDT is a simple computation (at least, it looks simple assuming large complicated black-boxes, like a causal model of reality) and there’s no particular reason that equation can only execute in sentient contexts. Faced with Omega in this case, I take the $1 - there is no reason for me not to do so—and conclude that Omega incorrectly executed the equation in the context outside my own mind.
Even if we suppose that “cogito ergo sum” presents an extra bit of evidence to me, whereby I truly know that I am the “real” me and not just the simple equation in a nonsentient context, it is still easy enough for Omega to simulate that equation plus the extra (false) bit of info, thereby recorrelating it with me.
If Omega really follows the stated algorithm for Omega, then the decision equation never executes in a sentient context. If it executes in a sentient context, then I know Omega wasn’t following the stated algorithm. Just like if Omega says “I will offer you this $1 only if 1 = 2” and then offers you the $1.
This shows that inference “I think therefore I exist” is, in general, invalid. You can’t update on your own existence (although you can use more specific info as parameters in your strategy).
Rather, you should look at yourself as an implication: “If I exist in this situation, then my actions are as I now decide”.
This might be a dumb question, but couldn’t the inference of your existence be valid AND bring with it the implication that your actions are as you decide?
After all, if you begin thinking of yourself as an inference, and you think to yourself, “Well, now, IF I exist, THEN yadda yadda...”—I mean, Don’t you exist at that point?
If non-existence is a negative, then you must be existant if you’re thinking anything at all. A decision cannot be made by nothing, right?
If Omega is making you an offer, Omega is validating your existence. Why would Omega, or anyone ask a question and expect a reply from something that doesn’t exist? You can also prove to yourself you exist as you consider the offer because you are engaged in a thinking process.
It feels more natural to say “I think, therefore I exist, and my actions are as I now decide.”
That said, I don’t think anyone can decide themselves out of existence LoL. As far as we know, energy is the only positive in the universe, and it cannot be destroyed, only transformed. So if your conciousness is tied to the structure of the matter you are comprised of, which is a form of energy, which is a positive, then it cannot become a negative, it can only transform into something else.
Maybe the whole “quantum observer” thing can explain why you DO die/disappear: Because if Omega gave you a choice, and you chose to no longer exist, Omega is “forced”, if you will, to observe your decision to cease existence. It’s part of the integrity of reality, I guess—existence usually implies free will AND it implies that you are a constant observer of the universe. If everything in the universe is made of the same thing you are, then everything else should also have the same qualities as you.
Every other positive thing has free will and is a constant observer. With this level playing field, you really have no choice but to accept your observations of the decisions that others make, and likewise others have no choice but to accept whatever decisions you make when they observe you.
So as the reality of your decision is accepted by Omega—Omega perceives you as gone for good. And so does anyone else who was observing. But somehow you’re still around LoL
Maybe that explains ghosts??? lol ;-D I know that sounds all woo-woo but the main point is this: it’s very hard to say that you can choose non-existence if you are a positive, because so far as we know, you can’t undo a positive.
(It reminds me of something Ayn Rand said that made me raise an eyebrow at the whole Objectivism thing: She said you can’t prove a negative and you can’t disprove a positive. I always thought it was the other way around: You can’t disprove a negative (you can’t destroy something that doesn’t exist), and you can’t prove a positive (it’s fallacious to attempt to prove the existence of an absolute, because the existence of an absolute is not up for debate!).
Ayn Rand’s statements were correct without being “true” somehow. You can’t prove a negative because if you could it would be a positive. Where as you can’t disprove a negative because if you COULD disprove a negative you would just end up with a double-negative?? Whaaat???
LOL Whatever, don’t listen to me : D
mmm to clarify that last point a little bit:
If disproving a negative was possible (meaning that disproving a negative could turn it into a positive) that would be the same as creating something out of nothing. It still violates the Law of Conservation of Energy, because the law states that you cannot create energy (can’t turn a negative into a positive)
<3
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.