Meanwhile the guru might be supplementing this with non-frame-control techniques. When they argue with you, they imply (maybe in a kind but firm voice, maybe with an undertone of social threat) that you’re kinda stupid for disagreeing for them
This exact implication isn’t frame control, but the common thing I’ve seen gurus do that is more subtle is assert why you disagree with them in a way that reinforces their frame.
“Kinda stupid” is overly crude, and might be spotted and feel off even among those who believe in them, but implying you just don’t “get” what they’re saying because you’re unenlightened or not ready for it is very effective at quieting dissent and maintaining their control.
In general this is why I dislike any attempts to assert with confidence what someone thinks or feels, as well as why. I may be one of the only therapists who hates psychoanalysis, but I maintain that it’s almost always a bad thing to to anyone who isn’t inviting it, and sometimes even then.
I agree that “asserting what someone is doing” can also be considered frame control or manipulation. But I think it’s much less often so, or much less dark artsy, because it’s referencing observable behavior rather than unverifiable/unfalsifiable elements.
One response to frame-control-y situations is, instead of making accusations that as you say can lead to a he-said-she-said situation, to personally fall back to a more careful, defensive posture vis a vis framing, accepting that there seem to be strong framing differences among the people here, and communicating this posture to others. In other words, accepting when it seems to be too hard to directly create common knowledge about what is happening at the level of framing.
to give a specific example of guru frame control: Several sources on the cult NXIVM describe the “NXIVM flip”. Whenever someone brought up a complaint they weren’t merely told “that’s not true” or “that’s actually good”, they were told “the fact that you are bringing this up indicates a flaw in you” (and then they were punished for it, but I don’t think that’s required for it to be frame control). The frame control was in insisting that all complaints were facts about the complainer and not the thing they were complaining about.
I don’t think the things raemon describes are necessarily frame control. They’re broad descriptors that include frame control but also other forms of manipulation. Elsewhere he has said he didn’t mean to claim it was frame control, so seems like we’re on the same page.
Yeah this variant does feel more like explicit frame control (I think “frame manipulation”, although it feels like it strains a bit with the cluster I’d originally been thinking of when I described it)
This exact implication isn’t frame control, but the common thing I’ve seen gurus do that is more subtle is assert why you disagree with them in a way that reinforces their frame.
“Kinda stupid” is overly crude, and might be spotted and feel off even among those who believe in them, but implying you just don’t “get” what they’re saying because you’re unenlightened or not ready for it is very effective at quieting dissent and maintaining their control.
In general this is why I dislike any attempts to assert with confidence what someone thinks or feels, as well as why. I may be one of the only therapists who hates psychoanalysis, but I maintain that it’s almost always a bad thing to to anyone who isn’t inviting it, and sometimes even then.
Accusations of frame control look like an example of this.
That sentence could be accused of being another exmaple.
As could that one.
And so on.
Even that one too.
I agree that “asserting what someone is doing” can also be considered frame control or manipulation. But I think it’s much less often so, or much less dark artsy, because it’s referencing observable behavior rather than unverifiable/unfalsifiable elements.
One response to frame-control-y situations is, instead of making accusations that as you say can lead to a he-said-she-said situation, to personally fall back to a more careful, defensive posture vis a vis framing, accepting that there seem to be strong framing differences among the people here, and communicating this posture to others. In other words, accepting when it seems to be too hard to directly create common knowledge about what is happening at the level of framing.
to give a specific example of guru frame control: Several sources on the cult NXIVM describe the “NXIVM flip”. Whenever someone brought up a complaint they weren’t merely told “that’s not true” or “that’s actually good”, they were told “the fact that you are bringing this up indicates a flaw in you” (and then they were punished for it, but I don’t think that’s required for it to be frame control). The frame control was in insisting that all complaints were facts about the complainer and not the thing they were complaining about.
I don’t think the things raemon describes are necessarily frame control. They’re broad descriptors that include frame control but also other forms of manipulation. Elsewhere he has said he didn’t mean to claim it was frame control, so seems like we’re on the same page.
Yeah this variant does feel more like explicit frame control (I think “frame manipulation”, although it feels like it strains a bit with the cluster I’d originally been thinking of when I described it)